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Wrap Tail vs Stop Tail


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#1 Jake8773

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:46 PM

Holy clarity batman!  To my ears this wrap tail is at least a notch or two clearer and richer than the usual stop tail/tone pro combo. 

 

Let the discussion begin

 

My "Arty" with wrap tail

 

DSC07098_zpscd60a562.jpg


Edited by Jake8773, 15 February 2013 - 08:13 AM.


#2 crunchee

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:59 PM

Holy clarity batman!  To my ears this wrap tail is at least a notch or two clearer and richer than the usual stop tail. 

 

When you say 'stop tail', you mean a 'Tune-O-Matic' style setup?  I've heard people use 'wrap tail' and 'stop tail' interchangeably, sometimes.


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#3 MarkF786

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:36 PM

There's another model very similar to that bridge but with two adjustable plates.  I had it on my Koll and liked it a lot, though I recently replaced it with a Schroeder bridge, which I think sounds even better.  The Gotoh is pot metal (zinc?) while the Schroeder is aluminum with brass saddles and brass studs.  The Gotoh has the advantage of less possible tone-stealing vibrations (from saddles, for example), but still the Schroeder is the clear winner to my ears and eyes.

 

Wilkinson_Gotoh_Adjustable_Bridge_Tailpi

Here's a picture of my Koll with the old bridge:

 

Koll2_small.jpg

 

And here it is with the new bridge:

 

Koll_Schroeder_small.jpg


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#4 sixesandsevens

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

I've considered the that very same bridge, but haven't taken the plunge. Are there aftermarket posts tha will replace a TOM bridge and hold a wraptail? The placement should be close enough, esp. for an intonatable wraptail, and you could even market some sort of blingy bits to screw into the stop tail holes. Or, like, a pick holder or something.

Not to derail, but how do you like your Koll? Do you think it's worth the price over, say, a Hamer Special or Artist Mahogany?

Edit: I haven't played two artists or studios side by side with differing bridges, but I will say that I and my drummer both preferred my studio wraptail to the monaco elite with TOM. That said, I'm skeptical of that being the deciding factor among so many big variables.

Edited by sixesandsevens, 13 February 2013 - 06:07 PM.


#5 tomteriffic

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:27 PM

To convert a Tuna/Stop setup you have to take the whole mess out, pull the bushings, fill the stoptail holes and re-drill the bridge holes, put in bushings, etc.The hole spacing doesn't match up at all.

 

I have two P-90 Specials at the moment.  One, which was pretty beat up and therefore a candidate for further abuse, was sent of to BCR Greg for conversion to a wraptail.  Greg put a Pigtail non-intonatable (but with the top of it set up for an unwound third) bridge on there and otherwise pretty much let the rough side drag.  It absolutely smokes.  The other one is good and is my primary "grab and go to a jam" guitar, but the wraptail conversion is really something of a higher order.

 

Like this:

 

100_5834Smaller.jpg

 

 

 

Wish i could stumble on a Newport 90


Edited by tomteriffic, 13 February 2013 - 08:32 PM.

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#6 MarkF786

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

Not to derail, but how do you like your Koll? Do you think it's worth the price over, say, a Hamer Special or Artist Mahogany?

 

I love my Koll Superior.  It has such a comfortable feel, both in the feel of the neck and the body contours.  It's extremely resonant and sustains for days.  Also, the fretboard and frets are so well done that I can lower the action more than any other guitar without any hint of string buzz - not that I typically I'm a low-action freak.  I've had many boutique guitars pass through my hands, but I've held onto this one.

 

I've never player a Hamer Special.  I imagine it would be nice, but probably a step below the Koll.  But "the law of diminishing returns" would apply; though it might be better, not everyone would think the difference in quality is worth the difference of price (at least when considering a used Hamer Special).


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#7 80burst

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:48 AM

Just curious as to when did Hamer go to the LP type setup? I really like that better than the early 80's type.



#8 sixesandsevens

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:06 AM

About '90. This page by Andrew has a chronology. http://www.buddlejag...amer/guitar.htm

I think there's a mix of wraptails, TOM, and sustainblock hard tails after that time.

Edit: After looking at the ads, it looks like it was around '90 and not '92.

Edited by sixesandsevens, 15 February 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#9 sixesandsevens

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:10 AM

To convert a Tuna/Stop setup you have to take the whole mess out, pull the bushings, fill the stoptail holes and re-drill the bridge holes, put in bushings, etc.The hole spacing doesn't match up at all.


I had heard that too. I'm just surprised someone doesn't make a set of posts that fits into the holes left by a TOM bridge with standard spacing for a wraptail retrofit.

Glad the retrofit worked out for you!

#10 sixesandsevens

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:23 AM


Not to derail, but how do you like your Koll? Do you think it's worth the price over, say, a Hamer Special or Artist Mahogany?

 
I love my Koll Superior.  It has such a comfortable feel, both in the feel of the neck and the body contours.  It's extremely resonant and sustains for days.  Also, the fretboard and frets are so well done that I can lower the action more than any other guitar without any hint of string buzz - not that I typically I'm a low-action freak.  I've had many boutique guitars pass through my hands, but I've held onto this one.
 


That's awesome. Is it a PBG guitar or a custom? Is it a set neck? Some of the shots on Saul's site make it look like a maple set neck but I couldn't find a spec sheet on there.


I've never player a Hamer Special.  I imagine it would be nice, but probably a step below the Koll.  But "the law of diminishing returns" would apply; though it might be better, not everyone would think the difference in quality is worth the difference of price (at least when considering a used Hamer Special).


Thanks. That's certainly the best answer you could give in your position.

Well, I guess it's a close second to "lemme go play some Hamers and get back to you". :D

Thanks!

Edited by sixesandsevens, 15 February 2013 - 04:25 AM.


#11 80burst

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:28 AM

About '90. This page by Andrew has a chronology. http://www.buddlejag...amer/guitar.htm

I think there's a mix of wraptails, TOM, and sustainblock hard tails after that time.

Edit: After looking at the ads, it looks like it was around '90 and not '92.

aahhh yes...I knew I'd seen that before...thanks for posting!



#12 AdmiralB

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:34 AM

I had heard that too. I'm just surprised someone doesn't make a set of posts that fits into the holes left by a TOM bridge with standard spacing for a wraptail retrofit.

 

Concept won't work.  TOM-style bridges must deal only with compressive force - all they have to do, structurally, is 'not sink into the wood'.

 

Tailpieces have ~100+ pounds of string tension trying to pull them towards the headstock.

 

The biggest commonly-used TOM bushings are the 'Nashville' style, and they're roughly 3/8" diameter, and I think a little less than a half-inch deep.  NOT gonna work as tailpiece anchors.



#13 sixesandsevens

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:40 AM

 

I had heard that too. I'm just surprised someone doesn't make a set of posts that fits into the holes left by a TOM bridge with standard spacing for a wraptail retrofit.

 

Concept won't work.  TOM-style bridges must deal only with compressive force - all they have to do, structurally, is 'not sink into the wood'.

 

Tailpieces have ~100+ pounds of string tension trying to pull them towards the headstock.

 

The biggest commonly-used TOM bushings are the 'Nashville' style, and they're roughly 3/8" diameter, and I think a little less than a half-inch deep.  NOT gonna work as tailpiece anchors.

 

In that case, I wonder how much trouble it would be to produce a device that would use the stoptail anchors to support the wraptail bridge posts (instead of the strings)?

 

I'm not trying to deny the laws of physics or anything.  It just feels like a crime that you can't do this without plugging, redrilling, and refinishing!  :)



#14 MarkF786

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 10:56 AM

 

 


Not to derail, but how do you like your Koll? Do you think it's worth the price over, say, a Hamer Special or Artist Mahogany?

 
I love my Koll Superior.  It has such a comfortable feel, both in the feel of the neck and the body contours.  It's extremely resonant and sustains for days.  Also, the fretboard and frets are so well done that I can lower the action more than any other guitar without any hint of string buzz - not that I typically I'm a low-action freak.  I've had many boutique guitars pass through my hands, but I've held onto this one.
 

 


That's awesome. Is it a PBG guitar or a custom? Is it a set neck? Some of the shots on Saul's site make it look like a maple set neck but I couldn't find a spec sheet on there.


I've never player a Hamer Special.  I imagine it would be nice, but probably a step below the Koll.  But "the law of diminishing returns" would apply; though it might be better, not everyone would think the difference in quality is worth the difference of price (at least when considering a used Hamer Special).
 


Thanks. That's certainly the best answer you could give in your position.

Well, I guess it's a close second to "lemme go play some Hamers and get back to you". :D

Thanks!

 

 

It's a custom Koll built around 2004.  The nitro is aging a bit; it used to look more "baby blue", though with the wood grain showing through.  The body is swap ash, the neck mahogany, and it's a set net.

 

I think Hamer's quality is up there with many of the "boutique" builders, but the Koll does have some extra "magic" beyond most Hamers I've played.  I've had many great guitars over the years, yet many friends have commented that they liked the Koll the best.

 

I have thought many times of getting a Hamer Special.  Last night I installed humbuckers in my Koll, so now I'd really like a Special to reuse my Lollar P90s.

 

Koll11.jpg

 

Koll12.jpg


Edited by MarkF786, 16 February 2013 - 11:48 AM.

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#15 cynic

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

How can I phrase this without hijacking....?

 

How do the Thorn's sound with the wraptail, and do you think they'd sound the same with a stop tail? :)



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