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Playing a pentanonic scale of any key at five different spots on the neck.


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Modes has been something that has thrown me for years. Just when I thought I knew them, I began second guessing myself. Years ago I learned all the modes in each key from a guitar instructor. And it was as Velorush said, a major scale but started at different positions within the scale. But if say, you were playing a G major scale and wanted to play G mixolydian which has a flat 7th, would you just play a G major scale starting on the fifth degree of the scale OR, instead play a G major scale with an F instead of an F#? Sorry, I know this probably elementary for most of you but this is one thing I just can't seem to wrap my head around. Thanks!

This is right -- though the trick is to not think about it as a G major scale --- you want to unlock the unique tonality of the modes in reference to its root and relationship to the chord or key you are playing in/over --- not it's ionian cousin.... this can be tricky but it's what's happening when you hear guys like Vai say "I hear a little e Lydian there... changing to a B bla bla bla bla..." Usually that means he really has established an ear for the unique tonality and use of a particular mode (or in the case of some guys -- is full of shit).

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But if say, you were playing a G major scale and wanted to play G mixolydian which has a flat 7th, would you just play a G major scale starting on the fifth degree of the scale OR, instead play a G major scale with an F instead of an F#? Sorry, I know this probably elementary for most of you but this is one thing I just can't seem to wrap my head around. Thanks!

This should work out for a great example (and please, I am self-instructed, so if anyone with any modecum of formal education sees any error, please, please correct me!):

Mindset One:

The G Major scale is G w A w B h C w D w E w F# (with the convention for whole and half-steps). To play G Mixolydian, you could play the major scale of the key for which G is the 5th or the C major scale. Spelled out, C major is C w D w E h F w G w A w B, but if we begin with G, we get G w A w B h C w D w E h F. Now let's compare:

G Major: G w A w B h C w D w E w F#

G Mixolydian: G w A w B h C w D w E h F [ = C Major: C w D w E h F w G w A w B ]

This shows what I couldn't figure out from reading Vai's article that night: That G Mixolydian is spelled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b. That's one way of looking at it.

Mindset Two:

From a guitar neck point of view (and this is where it opened up for me), if you learn, positionally (i.e., boxes) how to begin a major scale from any degree of the scale on the 6th string, you'll encounter seven patterns (I think of it more like five patterns because the Phrygian and Lydian (3rd and 4th) and also the Locrian and Ionian (7th and 1st) are so close to each other). Learn those seven (five) patterns. When you begin those patterns on your root note and you'll be playing the mode rather than the major scale. Next, learn the patterns beginning on the 5th string, 4th string (by now the patterns will be old hat because they are contained within the patterns you just learned).

I just read Geoff's post as I Previewed for clarity - please consider this a relatively poor supplement to his more lucid and learned explanation! :)

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What is Framton doing in this simple lead? Is this modal? His lick goes with the chord progression as opposed to just root, I believe is D. This is what I want to become efficient while improvising. I hope to be able to answer this question after taking the advice of this thread.

http://compusouth.net/a/f.mp3

This thread gives such good direction. Pithy versions of learning that spawn entire career as opposed to reading hundreds of webpages to find the same content scope of this thread.

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Pretty simple but still confusing stuff. I had built my bridge to playing noticing that there are three basic patterns building up a position.

1-34 (minor form)

12-4 (major form)

1-3-

1-34 and 12-4 appear in pairs. 1-3- works as a bridge between 1-34 and 12-4.

Reading bottom up (horizontally, within a position)

-1-34

-12-4

12-4

-1-3-

-1-34

-1-34

(Vertically, in fretboard length)

For the same string the upper 12-4 in a position is always followed by the 1-3- with 4=1 and 3=1 of building the entrance for the lower 1-34 of the next pattern.

12-4=1-3=1-34 or

12-4 1-34

1-3

The bridges helped me to walk across the fretboard, changing positions, regardless of knowing which pattern actually applies.

In order to define myself within a key, I start of with one of the basic patterns and just go ahead from there.

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Check out "Fretboard Logic" vol. I and II from Bill Edwards. It will lift the curtain.

Scalewise, I'm happy with pentatonics and diatonics. There's so much to learn on harmonics and playing that I don't need another scale though. I'm pretty much into intervallic playing as opposed to the usual scale rundown.

For intervallic improvisation I recommend Carl Verheyen's book on the matter.

I just ordered Fretboard Logic SE (I & II). Thanks for the tip.

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For a good introduction to the modes in a quite intuitive and logical way, I'd recommend the columns that Richard Lloyd wrote for Guitar World several years ago. They appeared under the title "The Alchemical Guitarist". They seem to have been compiled in a DVD I haven't watched, but you can't go wrong with Richard Lloyd.

Here they talk about the DVD: http://www.guitarworld.com/richard-lloyd-alchemical-guitarist-guitar-lesson-dvd

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any understanding of "Lead " playing or improvisation should start with understanding song structure . popular western music almost always falls into one of three catagories . (using" A "scales as an example )1: A major 1A 2B 3C# 4D 5E 6F# 7G# 8A( half steps between 3/4 & 7/8 ) the chords are 1maj (A) 2 Min (Bm ) 3min (C#m ) 4maj(D ) 5 maj(E) 6 min (F#m) 7 dim (G#dim) = use A scales for Lead ,,,, 2: Am = C ( natural minor ) 1A 2B 3C 4D 5E 6F 7G 8A ( half steps between 2/3 &5/6 ) The chords are 1m (Am) 2dim(Bdim )3major (cmajor ) 4min (Dmin) 5 min (Em) 6major ( F major ) 7major (G major) = use C major scales ( think of them as Am /A root ),,,3: Am = G (dorian minor )1A 2B 3C 4D 5E 6F# 7G 8A ( half steps between 2/3 & 6/7) the chords are 1min (Am) 2min (Bm ) 3maj (Cmajor) 4maj (Dmaj ) 5min (Em ) 6 dim ( F#dim ) 7 maj (Gmaj)= use Gmajor scale ( think of them as Am/A root ) recoginzing which scale to use by what the song structure is,is the trick, now your 5 patterns work in any key , theyre just called all sorts of different names ( what I like to refer to as enharmonic bull shit ) also pentatonics do not make the natural minor/ dorian minor distinction as theres not enough notes in the scale to do so.

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I learned them pretty early by ear. I learned to play lead by playing with the radio and trying to find notes that sounded right. By doing that, I pretty quickly recognized those five patterns and also learned you could move them around. The nice thing about my local rock station at the time was that there was a mix of styles and keys. You even start figuring out the seemingly weird stuff like Em pentatonic box starting on the 12th fret working over G major and Em but not E major. If the song was in G and I wanted to sound "pretty," I played that box at the 12th. If I wanted it to sound "nasty," I moved that same box to the 15th fret.

Not being satisfied with just knowing it worked, I also pretty quickly got into going back and reading why those things worked. I never really learned a lot of licks from tab because I felt like unless you understood why that lick worked over that progression, you weren't really assimilating anything new but just learning how to copy something. When I really wanted to learn a solo, I'd spend a lot of time trying to understand why it worked so if I wanted to screw around with the phrasing and/or playing it in a different key on the fly, I could. It's helpful. For instance, realizing that EVH was really just playing an arpeggio in a different way when he tapped was an epiphany. It helped open up playing improved tapping stuff rather than just learning a part to throw into a solo as kind of a neat trick.

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After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

This video sorted my modal questions out straight away, it's all about drone notes. Drone the first note of the major scale then play the major scale and you have Ionian, now put your drone note on the second note of the major scale and play the same major scale as before, you have dorian etc etc, great video.

Just search "rob chapman modes" into Google, it's the first hit

Geoff

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After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

This video sorted my modal questions out straight away, it's all about drone notes. Drone the first note of the major scale then play the major scale and you have Ionian, now put your drone note on the second note of the major scale and play the same major scale as before, you have dorian etc etc, great video.

Just search "rob chapman modes" into Google, it's the first hit

Geoff

Will do. Just reading this thread has me steered in the right direction.

I also play a deviation of the pentatonic (blues scale), located at the same starting points but with an addition couple of notes. What is this? I use it back and forth with the pentatonic. Sometimes it sounds great playing to a key that is not the root in a simple chord progression, like using A when the root is D but A is secondary or something. If that makes sense. I am sorting things out, hopefully after after the video and reading Fretboard Logic SE I just ordered I will be able to see things with a larger scope and explain things clearly.

Example for A, playing the scale down starting with the little E string. I repeat these notes at the same 5 pentatonic points.

6th = 8,7,5

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

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After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

This video sorted my modal questions out straight away, it's all about drone notes. Drone the first note of the major scale then play the major scale and you have Ionian, now put your drone note on the second note of the major scale and play the same major scale as before, you have dorian etc etc, great video.

Just search "rob chapman modes" into Google, it's the first hit

Geoff

Will do. Just reading this thread has me steered in the right direction.

I also play a deviation of the pentatonic (blues scale), located at the same starting points but with an addition couple of notes. What is this? I use it back and forth with the pentatonic. Sometimes it sounds great playing to a key that is not the root in a simple chord progression, like using A when the root is D but A is secondary or something. If that makes sense. I am sorting things out, hopefully after after the video and reading Fretboard Logic SE I just ordered I will be able to see things with a larger scope and explain things clearly.

Example for A, playing the scale down starting with the little E string. I repeat these notes at the same 5 pentatonic points.

6th = 8,7,5

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

As Luc pointed out -- this A Aeolian scale in this position (which corresponds to the classic pentatonic box) is the same notes you'll find in the c Maj scale.... So you just learned something --- that the classic pentatonic blues box overlays on the natural minor key position named from the 6th note of the major scale..... you can play C Ionian, D dorian, ... ect... this will help you open up the neck -- using this same knowledge -- what modes do the other 4 pentatonic positions overlay on? Can you figure that out?

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I still don't have a good grasp of how to play modes.

However, I finally understood the concept behind them when I was trying to sing a song once.

I was on a long trip with no music in the vehicle (rental U-Haul) and trying to stay awake. So I started trying to recreate some of my favorite songs, and even tried to write a song and keep all the parts in my head as I was driving.

One of the songs was a latin jazz number. And as I sang it, instead of sounding cool, it sounded cheesy and lame. After about an hour of comparing my singing to the sound in my head, I realized that as I sang, I was raising one of the pitches by a half step. In effect, I was turning a Dorian scale into a Ionian. Maybe into a Mixolydian.

I think.

Point being was I got a lesson of how a scale can fit a given harmonic structure, but change one note by a half step and you change the character/tone/mood of the melody.

The scale I was singing worked. But it sounded cheesy. The change of just one half step made the melody sound complex and cool.

I still need to sit down and play with that to make that idea mine.

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After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

This video sorted my modal questions out straight away, it's all about drone notes. Drone the first note of the major scale then play the major scale and you have Ionian, now put your drone note on the second note of the major scale and play the same major scale as before, you have dorian etc etc, great video.

Just search "rob chapman modes" into Google, it's the first hit

Geoff

Will do. Just reading this thread has me steered in the right direction.

I also play a deviation of the pentatonic (blues scale), located at the same starting points but with an addition couple of notes. What is this? I use it back and forth with the pentatonic. Sometimes it sounds great playing to a key that is not the root in a simple chord progression, like using A when the root is D but A is secondary or something. If that makes sense. I am sorting things out, hopefully after after the video and reading Fretboard Logic SE I just ordered I will be able to see things with a larger scope and explain things clearly.

Example for A, playing the scale down starting with the little E string. I repeat these notes at the same 5 pentatonic points.

6th = 8,7,5

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

Its a "c" major scale at the 5th fret ( what i was talkin about relativity of majors &minors as "modes " ) playing against an Am progression , if your using it against a power chord ( 2 note ) 145 progrression & calling it A your lead is actually makin the progrression Am. play your scale then hit a full c chord youll hear what I mean

C-Maj-03.jpg

6th = 8,7,5 your srtring numbers seem backwards I am assuming this is actually the first string (skinniest )

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

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Mostly, I'm not playing melodies on the key level but rather start a 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, or even 13th higher from the key tone. Still playin within the key, so, being in a mode. Once a colleague, being quite a professional guitar player himself, told me the further away from the key tone you play the more interesting it sounds. I like to stay at least an octave higher to have my tone separate from the key tone to be more present or distinguishable.

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Here is what I learned as the mode scale patterns. These are in the key of A. Not sure why Aeolian is listed first. Anyways, are these patterns correct? If so, how would I play Aeolian in other places on the neck other the pattern starting at the second fret and of course at the fourteenth fret? And that question would apply for the rest of the mode patterns. I am stuck using the one position for each mode. Thanks! Great discussion.

Modes_zpse5fae4f6.jpg

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^^^ yes but its really all the same stuff , there are only 5 areas on the neck, and 5 patterns that cover the neck , all are just slight variations ( couple extra notes here a few less there , played diagonally , whatever ) there are 5 basic areas on the nek before you repeat . you can call them whatever you want their all the same. it just makes it simpler if you know relative minors ,an Am scale can = a G major scale or a C major scale depending on the chords of the song . you can extrapolate this Idea to all keys, or deal with a hundred "modes ". Its all the same

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taking another tack here , think of all the natural notes on the fretboard , this is the key of C ( one big pattern from nut to end of fretboard ) you can divide this up into any patterns you wish its all the key of C , this key can be used for Am ( natural minor ) or for Dm( dorian minor ) of course it can also be used for C . the point is you now have all of the notes in 3 keys ( mode just means what note you start & end on , akin to chord inversions ) so Cworks for Am & Dm , D works for Bm & Em , E works for C#m &F#m, Fworks for Dm & Gm , Gworks for Em & Am , A works for F#m& Bm and so on , the whole neck pattern works just like a bar chord you move it around for the right "note ". major keys are ez , minor key are typically played two ways natural & dorian which is determined by the chord progression . example stairway to heaven =Am, G ,F this is A natural minor (Am=C) .any song In Am using a Bm or D major chord will be Am dorian (Am =G) ( the difference Am, G, F has no sharps or flats hence Key of C ( actually A naturalMinor ) , where as any minor progression using a Dmajor or Bm chord has an F# in it hence the key of G) once you catch this I dea its way simpler than thinking of all those modes( modes are contained within the scale moving either up or across the neck )

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After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

This video sorted my modal questions out straight away, it's all about drone notes. Drone the first note of the major scale then play the major scale and you have Ionian, now put your drone note on the second note of the major scale and play the same major scale as before, you have dorian etc etc, great video.

Just search "rob chapman modes" into Google, it's the first hit

Geoff

Will do. Just reading this thread has me steered in the right direction.

I also play a deviation of the pentatonic (blues scale), located at the same starting points but with an addition couple of notes. What is this? I use it back and forth with the pentatonic. Sometimes it sounds great playing to a key that is not the root in a simple chord progression, like using A when the root is D but A is secondary or something. If that makes sense. I am sorting things out, hopefully after after the video and reading Fretboard Logic SE I just ordered I will be able to see things with a larger scope and explain things clearly.

Example for A, playing the scale down starting with the little E string. I repeat these notes at the same 5 pentatonic points.

6th = 8,7,5

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

Its a "c" major scale at the 5th fret ( what i was talkin about relativity of majors &minors as "modes " ) playing against an Am progression , if your using it against a power chord ( 2 note ) 145 progrression & calling it A your lead is actually makin the progrression Am. play your scale then hit a full c chord youll hear what I mean

C-Maj-03.jpg

6th = 8,7,5 your srtring numbers seem backwards I am assuming this is actually the first string (skinniest )

5th = 8.6.5

4th= 7,5,4

3rd= 7,5

2nd= 8.7.5

1st = 8.7.5

I see what you mean, it's the C scale. It sure seems to fit in those boxes nicely, usually minus one note and plus a couple, which makes it sound like a minor of the pentatonic of any bar chord your start the scale at. Man this stuff is deep and I am just scratching the surface! A major sounding like a minor played to a different note.

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learning all the different shapes of the pentatonic scales and also the standard modes is a very good way to lay a great foundation for improvisation. combine that with the standard arpeggios and you've got a pretty formidable amount of options there. Then you learn how to put them together.

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learning all the different shapes of the pentatonic scales and also the standard modes is a very good way to lay a great foundation for improvisation. combine that with the standard arpeggios and you've got a pretty formidable amount of options there. Then you learn how to put them together.

Just the way I went into it.

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learning all the different shapes of the pentatonic scales and also the standard modes is a very good way to lay a great foundation for improvisation. combine that with the standard arpeggios and you've got a pretty formidable amount of options there. Then you learn how to put them together.

That's right, but I think one better starts learning to put them together as they come, from the very start. ;)

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learning all the different shapes of the pentatonic scales and also the standard modes is a very good way to lay a great foundation for improvisation. combine that with the standard arpeggios and you've got a pretty formidable amount of options there. Then you learn how to put them together.

That's right, but I think one better starts learning to put them together as they come, from the very start. ;)

Agree, and the piano is probably a great place to start a child at the age of 5-10. From there I would let the child decide on what direction he wants to go instrument wise when he discovers his music of choice. No one in my family played instruments, so like many, I had to gravitate and learn on my own. There was a show guitar in the house when I was 6 and I was instinctively intrigued and would take it to the play room, I asked for an acoustic on my 12th birthday. Just a few years ago I found out that my estranged great grandfather owned the only music store in my town and could play several bluegrass instruments, my father listened to very complicated bebop modal jazz but didn't play. I later gravitated towards the drums and peaked at a good level, marching band at UA and the army and circuit touring, but drums never satisfied my taste for simple but perfect melodies and the aura of a great sound like U2's The Edge or the piano melodies of Bill Evans.

Being trained at an early age in music theory is crucial for someone with talent, it's the same as learning a language, the older you get the harder it is. Not sure this applies to drums, I tried lessons at 12 but was way past what they were trying to teach. And drumming is less mathematical than a scaled instrument. It's about 100% god given.

I made sure my son had a computer, midi keyboard, FL Studio, a Guitar and an electronic drumset by the age of 12 (a little late). But he blows me away in production and is working with fairly popular artists on the internet now making beat orientated backing tracks to sing or rap to.

5-12 is crucial for someone that may make it a profession imo.

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