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CITES Question


ArnieZ

Question

If one attempts to ship a guitar with Indian rosewood from the USA to a country that doesn't give a shit....

Would the US seize the guitar in question or would that fall upon the destination country?

guesses and BS won't help:P

ArnieZ

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I am working with a seller from the U.S. and in his research he came across this:  According to this article https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-cites-permits-and-certificates-2013.pdf - see top right bullet point on page 2 - "Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

However, in my case, Canada requires a CITES permit from the U.S.  We submitted on May 16th and have not received it yet.   On July 21st, we received this note from the U.S. side:

"I was assigned your application requesting a CITES permit for re-exporting a guitar.  Please be aware that we process applications on a first come first serve basis.  I have 29 applications to review before reviewing yours.  I will contact you the day I review the application to confirm if any additional information is needed and to give you an estimated time for finalizing the application. "

What a pain...Good luck, Arnie!!

 

 

 

 

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There are 183 countries that observe CITES, so odds are if you're shipping internationally, the receiving country gives a shit (at least on paper).

The 2012 document linked above (and any other document dated prior to 1/2/2017, really) is outdated.

Also, to keep your research pertinent, brazilian rw is appendix I, all other rw is appendix II.  No idea what difference that makes, but there must be something or it would be the same?

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On 8/11/2017 at 6:40 PM, cynic said:

The 2012 document linked above (and any other document dated prior to 1/2/2017, really) is outdated.

 

In this case, that document is the current document available on the Department of Fish & Wildlife website. It is applicable as it speaks to Appendix I and II items, not specific items in the Appendices. 

On 8/11/2017 at 6:23 PM, dgstandard said:

I am working with a seller from the U.S. and in his research he came across this:  According to this article https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-cites-permits-and-certificates-2013.pdf - see top right bullet point on page 2 - "Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

However, in my case, Canada requires a CITES permit from the U.S.  We submitted on May 16th and have not received it yet.   On July 21st, we received this note from the U.S. side:

"I was assigned your application requesting a CITES permit for re-exporting a guitar.  Please be aware that we process applications on a first come first serve basis.  I have 29 applications to review before reviewing yours.  I will contact you the day I review the application to confirm if any additional information is needed and to give you an estimated time for finalizing the application. "

 

This exemption doesn't apply. If you look a little before that statement, you'll find that particular exemption applies to personal or household effects that are part of a household move or are accompanying the owner. Shipments wouldn't qualify as a personal or household effect.The document is pretty clear in the middle of page 1, if you are exporting an Appendix I or II item, you need an export or re-export permit. If I were planning on shipping more than a couple of items out internationally over the next 2 years, I'd apply for a master certificate and get a few blank individual certificates for export. Then I would document the age of the guitar to prove that it was manufactured pre-convention in case of an audit or examination.

To me, the interesting thing here is that Appendix II items do not need an IMPORT certificate. What this tells me (keep in mind, I'm no lawyer) is that if I buy something with Appendix II material from another country, it's their responsibility to comply with their country's CITES export procedures. But I don't need to apply for an import certificate. Appendix I items (Brazilian Rosewood) do require an import certificate.

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57 minutes ago, currypowder said:

To me, the interesting thing here is that Appendix II items do not need an IMPORT certificate. What this tells me (keep in mind, I'm no lawyer) is that if I buy something with Appendix II material from another country, it's their responsibility to comply with their country's CITES export procedures. But I don't need to apply for an import certificate. Appendix I items (Brazilian Rosewood) do require an import certificate.

CITES enforcement is the jurisdiction of the receiving country, meaning App 1 or App 2 items exported/re-exported to the US must be accompanied by the appropriate export/re-export certificate.  Sure, that's the sellers responsibility, but assuming they don't ship until they have your money I'd want to see scans of the documentation first.

After spending the majority of my life as an employee of the US government and having a lifetime of experience with their administrative efficiency, I'll stand by my cautionary post above and reiterate that the link is nearly five years old and there have been changes to CITES having significant relevance when buying/selling guitars internationally.  It may be the "current" version available on their site, but it doesn't mean it's up to date.

This is from the Reverb explanation I linked to above and is something to keep in mind when considering what level of priority U.S. FIsh and Wildlife might place on updating their links:  

"If you contact US Fish and Wildlife, please keep in mind that they did not suggest or create this regulation - the parties of the international CITES conference did"

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On 8/11/2017 at 6:23 PM, dgstandard said:

I am working with a seller from the U.S. and in his research he came across this:  According to this article https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-cites-permits-and-certificates-2013.pdf - see top right bullet point on page 2 - "Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

However, in my case, Canada requires a CITES permit from the U.S.  We submitted on May 16th and have not received it yet.   On July 21st, we received this note from the U.S. side:

"I was assigned your application requesting a CITES permit for re-exporting a guitar.  Please be aware that we process applications on a first come first serve basis.  I have 29 applications to review before reviewing yours.  I will contact you the day I review the application to confirm if any additional information is needed and to give you an estimated time for finalizing the application. "

 

 

What a pain...Good luck, Arnie!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is total bullshit and is typical of how CITES works in the U.S. Or actually, how these people treat CITES applications. It's going to take 6 months. I guarantee you. Total bullshit. Don't get my blood pressure up. 

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On August 24th received this response from the US CITES side:  "Still have some applications to review before processing yours.  Will contact you the day I review it."

Haven't heard anything since.

Ting, you are right - this is total bullshit.

 

 

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