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Setting up a guitar / some info and some questions.


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I've bought and sold a lot of guitars over the past 5 years. Maybe not as many as some of you but it was kind of manic for me. One thing I am good at is setting up a guitar. I know some of you are kind of shy about this and would rather let a pro do it. But, some of the guitars I bought played like shit when I got them and I realized right off all they needed was a good setup. Several were from BrentRocks. Seems Brent thought necks should have all the relief in them that was physically possible. Straightening out the neck is one of the first things you should look at. I just use an aluminum straight edge I bought at ACE Hardware to check the relief and then adjust the truss rod accordingly. Normally, all the relief you will need is about the thickness of the high e string. So not much. Then come adjusting the action height. 

This is where I'd like some opinions. Well, I'd like your opinions on all my points but this one I feel I may have a valid point.

It is my understanding that most "luthiers" use radius tools / cutouts / gauge or what ever you call them to determine the radius of the fretboard. Then they use the same tool over the top of the strings once it's strung up and adjust the saddles according to the radius. I don't see how this is accurate as the low e-string is obviously fatter than the high e-string. So I don't see how this follows the radius of the fretboard. What I do is measure the distance between the twelfth fret and the bottom of the strings with a handy little measuring stick I also bought from ACE. It has a cool slide on it that protrudes horizontally from the main ruler. I slide it down to 4/64ths and then lower or raise all the strings to this height. In other words, the bottom of the strings are all the same height from the 12th fret. Then I test how she plays and decide where to go from there. If the frets are level and the truss rod is set correctly, I can get most guitars to play lower than 4/64ths. But then if you take the radius gage out and place it on top of the strings it will tell you that you have adjustments to make. 

Make sense?

I've bought 2 guitars here from other HFCrs that came in as crap. One of them the pickups didn't have the proper screws in the pickups and they flopped around in the pocket. It also had a back bow to the neck so the strings at the 8th fret were lower than at the nut. The other was a parts caster that everything that you could adjust needed adjusting. These were guitars people sold because they didn't like the way they played. I sold one because it just didn't fit me, but it played great when I was done with it. The other has become one of my favorites. As for the BrentRocks guitars, They all played great once I wiped all the BrentRocks goo off of them. 

One more tip: I've also noticed some guitars rattle when you play them. Sometimes this can be from a truss rod that is completely slack in the neck. If it doesn't need to be adjusted (some maple necks are incredibly straight and don't need much adjusting) if you tighten the rod just snug it will keep it from vibrating.

What do you guys think? What do you do?

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I'm not a setup wizard, but I have a set of radius gauges.  They are radiused such that they can measure both from above and from below, and they have a little handle to them that allows them to be held underneath the strings, which is the way I understood that they should be used for bridge adjustment.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Necks_and_Fingerboards/Understring_Radius_Gauges.html

I do have a couple of guitars that rattle and I haven't been able to identify the source of the rattling.  Thanks for the idea to chase down next.

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A "setup" is for the person who plays the guitar, not the guitar. Each, different person's guitar is "setup" to there specification, situation.

Some like it the action high, some low.

Some like the pickups right under the strings, some like the pickups away.....

It is all up to the individual.

"Setups" vary.

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I use a Fret Guru 2 setup gauge:

[ https://www.amazon.com/FretGuru-Precision-Evaluation-guitarist-ADVANCED/dp/B00HG29EYI/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1517678417&sr=8-10&keywords=guitar+setup+tool ]

It can be used for a lot of different things like looking for uneven frets, but I just use it for setting string height over the fingerboard and pickup height.  it's pretty easy to see the height even with my aging eyes.  I usually tweak the high strings a little lower to make them easier to play.  I tried using those cutout radius gauges from the Earlewine book, but all I managed to do was get the strings on the correct radius  somewhat unevenly over the fretboard lol. The radius of the strings isn't the same as the string height over the fretboard lol - imagine two straight lines in parallel at a given constant height.  Tip the top one a little, and it's still a straight line but now one end is higher than the other.  Same thing with a radius gauge - I can get those crooked pretty easily lol.

--edited to add

Murkat's right - ultimately it's what you want the guitar to play like (and a little of what the guitar can do too without professional help lol).  My shredders are set up lower than I prefer my telecasters and strats.  Different tools for different jobs. 

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1 hour ago, murkat said:

A "setup" is for the person who plays the guitar, not the guitar. Each, different person's guitar is "setup" to there specification, situation.

Some like it the action high, some low.

Some like the pickups right under the strings, some like the pickups away.....

It is all up to the individual.

"Setups" vary.

True. But this really isn't the point of my post. My post was some tips and tricks I've learned as well as some cheap tools that work for starting the setup. I hadn't seen this video before mrjamiam provided the link but the narrator states that the correct way to set the radius of the strings to the radius of the board is from the bottom of the strings. Just as I have been doing with my little $2.99 ruler from ACE. But, if someone likes their strings to be on a different radius than the fretboard they can follow the steps I do and just plus or minus what ever they want. Also, if they want a bent neck like BrentRocks does then they can do that too. I'm just saying for me, the starting point is a straight neck and all strings set to 4/64. As I stated, I then test it out and go from there for the setup I want on the particular instrument / job. But, one good way if you don't have the tools to see if there are high frets is to get the action as low as possible and see which frets are buzzing. Raise it up a bit and see if they buzz still. 

ETA: Oops, forgot the video

 

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9 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said:

Buzzing may also be an indicator that your neck is too straight and needs a bit more relief. This varies due to string gauge and how aggressive the player is with the strings. Sometimes folks tend to hit the strings during set up much harder than they would when plugged in and amplified because it isn’t amplified and the urge to hear the unplugged guitar greater, therefore they hit the strings harder to make it louder. So it’s always a good  idea to check for buzz plugged up and as if you are playing, and not hit the strings too hard to look  for buzz. Hitting the strings more aggressively  than normal will make strings rattle and buzz unplugged on even the most perfect setup.

I'm pretty heavy handed. As you mentioned, it's probably because I don't play plugged in as much as I play unplugged on my porch. I've been thinking about that a bit lately too. Going to try to plug in more. I'm also a gripper. I like to make the strings slightly out of tune especially on the cowboy chords. But I think that's poor technique and I should probably stop but it's so much fun to do. But, as @DBrazpointed out to me, it may be because I used to wrestle alligators. 

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I’m not a luthier.  I respectfully submit that you should check if your frets are level when evaluating buzzing issues.  I bought this handy tool from LMI years ago.  Also I think it’s wise to check for loose fret ends by pushing on them before leveling.

 

43B36510-A5AF-45CA-BCF4-6BA77D2A0208.jpeg

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9 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

 Several were from BrentRocks. Seems Brent thought necks should have all the relief in them that was physically possible.

Why does this not surprise me?

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I will say that radius gauges have really saved me time on my non TOM guitars. So much easier to just set the E's and fill in the middle quickly when you have 6 adjustable saddles.

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Not that my opinion matters but I have never worried too much about string height in relation to radius.  Most of the time I use Floyds.  I get the Floyd level to the body and set up the high E to 1mm at the 12th and the low E to 1.09mm and then adjust down to suit.  I use a metal feeler gauge.  During this stage I make neck relief adjustments if I need to.

Like you Michael I don't have much bow.  I get a tiny bit of buzz but not a lot.  It doesn't bother me and an amp masks it.

Generally I play with the high E height until it's as low as I can handle without losing grip when going for big bends.  Over a few days I end up settling on the set up and leave it.  

On hard tails I apply the same method but rely on feel for strings a-b.

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3 hours ago, DBraz said:

Not that my opinion matters but I have never worried too much about string height in relation to radius.  Most of the time I use Floyds.  I get the Floyd level to the body and set up the high E to 1mm at the 12th and the low E to 1.09mm and then adjust down to suit.  I use a metal feeler gauge.  During this stage I make neck relief adjustments if I need to.

Like you Michael I don't have much bow.  I get a tiny bit of buzz but not a lot.  It doesn't bother me and an amp masks it.

Generally I play with the high E height until it's as low as I can handle without losing grip when going for big bends.  Over a few days I end up settling on the set up and leave it.  

On hard tails I apply the same method but rely on feel for strings a-b.

I like mine a little bit lower, LOL

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Some of the set-up measurements I'm reading above are pretty much non-attainable as far as fret-out-free and buzz-free performance without a truly level fret bed. You guys with older guitars and/or with a lot of miles on the frets, keep that in mind if you're trying to hit liquid low action with your set-ups.

Harder to manipulate and adjust, however, is the height of the frets as they relate to each other. Simply put, the more uniform the height of the frets, the lower the string action can go. Because you can’t turn screws to adjust fret height, most set-ups are dictated by how “level” the frets’ heights sit.

That “level” is a make-or-break point on how low an instrument’s action can go: The more fret heights vary, the higher the action must ultimately be in order for the guitar to function properly, i.e. clear and clean feeling and sounding notes up and down the entire neck. Even very slight fret height variances (hundreds to thousands of an inch) are significant.

http://www.thefretshack.com/blog/fretleveling

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51 minutes ago, Jeff R said:

Some of the set-up measurements I'm reading above are pretty much non-attainable as far as fret-out-free and buzz-free performance without a truly level fret bed. You guys with older guitars and/or with a lot of miles on the frets, keep that in mind if you're trying to hit liquid low action with your set-ups.

Harder to manipulate and adjust, however, is the height of the frets as they relate to each other. Simply put, the more uniform the height of the frets, the lower the string action can go. Because you can’t turn screws to adjust fret height, most set-ups are dictated by how “level” the frets’ heights sit.

That “level” is a make-or-break point on how low an instrument’s action can go: The more fret heights vary, the higher the action must ultimately be in order for the guitar to function properly, i.e. clear and clean feeling and sounding notes up and down the entire neck. Even very slight fret height variances (hundreds to thousands of an inch) are significant.

http://www.thefretshack.com/blog/fretleveling

Indeed. I have a Zion USA (but actually CA) neck that I think is a Ty Tabor signature. Came to me in an odd way and I got ripped off buying it on ebay. Other than Hamer, Zion was the only other guitar I'd buy online sight unseen until I found Melancon. I got the neck (it was attached to a POS plywood body) and couldn't get the action below 5/64 on both sides. Adjusted the truss (heel mount, blah) but still no luck with the buzz. Removed the neck and the nut conveniently fell off so I decided to level the frets. It turned out really good using makeshift tools from ACE. It was very hard on my fingers though and I didn't enjoy doing it. But it turned out great. Got me in the 3/64 area and is now one of my favorite Strat style guitars. The reason I was glad the nut fell off was the first 3 frets had some pretty good sized pits and I didn't have the proper tools to do one fret at a time. I didn't measure the radius but IIRC most early Zions were 12". It's a slim shredder neck D style that I also didn't care for until the final product came into shape. Now I take it to the porch as well.  

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14 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

When checking relief, do you guys measure low E at the 7th fret with a feeler gauge while depressing the first and last fret? 

I've never found the "pressing the string" at the first and 12th or what ever to be that accurate. I use a straightedge I got from Ace that covers the entire length of the fretboard. I place it between the strings and view it from the side against a lit window or white wall. I basically eyeball it but you can make feeler gauges out of popsicle sticks and the clipped ends of your strings. So if you use 10 to 46 you will get 6 feeler gauges, .010, .012, .017, ..026, .036, .046, or there abouts depending on the brand of strings you use. Either tape them to the end of a popsicle stick or hot glue, super glue, etc. The neck needs to be under tension with the strings tuned up to your desired pitch.  

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22 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

When checking relief, do you guys measure low E at the 7th fret with a feeler gauge while depressing the first and last fret? 

Yes.  It was the first and 17th fret, though.  There is a "fall away" area at the end of the fretboard.

My radius gauge set only checks from the top.  Stewart MacDonald did not yet have the under-string radius gauges when mine were bought. 

It has been a while since playing with a set up, but after getting the string low without fret rattle I would start raising the bridge a little until the tone blossomed.  You can hear a difference between super low action and high action.  The goal is to get the best of both.  I went for tone, and the action was not high at all. 

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1 hour ago, gtrdaddy said:

Gibson’s Robo-Guitar MkII is going to automatically make adjustments for fret height on worn frets. It will also feature Artificial Intelligence like Siri and Alexa, but will be a male voice modeled after its namesake, Henry. Henry,  will ask you how your guitar feels, and if you want your action higher or lower. It will also do away with volume and tone controls because this will all be taken care of by Henry, with simple voice commands. They’re hammering out the bugs at present(their software engineer yelled out for someone to get his assistant “Lisa”, thirty mins later, Dominos showed up.

:lol:

AI 'Henry', built into new Gibsons...isn't this how Skynet is supposedly gonna get started, then take over and annihilate everything else in the future?

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4 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

I've never found the "pressing the string" at the first and 12th or what ever to be that accurate. I use a straightedge I got from Ace that covers the entire length of the fretboard. I place it between the strings and view it from the side against a lit window or white wall. I basically eyeball it but you can make feeler gauges out of popsicle sticks and the clipped ends of your strings. So if you use 10 to 46 you will get 6 feeler gauges, .010, .012, .017, ..026, .036, .046, or there abouts depending on the brand of strings you use. Either tape them to the end of a popsicle stick or hot glue, super glue, etc. The neck needs to be under tension with the strings tuned up to your desired pitch.  

So where do you check relief, Ting?

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1 hour ago, Jakeboy said:

So where do you check relief, Ting?

I guess it's around the 5th to 7th fret since that's where the most adjustment comes from the truss rod. I've never really thought about it because the first fret is touching the bar and all the higher frets are touching. Like I said, I just eyeball it. and if it doesn't work I make a change either way. If that doesn't work then I know there is fretwork to be done. 

4 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said:

Michael, you know you can get a flat brass automotive feeler gauge for like $5 or $6 bucks, you’ll have a much easier time visually ;-)

Leaving home, cranking the car, spending money on something I can make. I like to make things and make a dime out of a nickel. When I was young and had to check the gap in the points in the distributer I used a feeler gauge. Also with the spark plugs. I guess it's like fishing or making sure the flapper is seating right in the toilet. You wait for that little tick on the line to tell you it's right. 

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I have pages of measurements from set ups from various guitars I've had, and there is no correlation between the numbers and how easy any particular guitar feels to play.  Neck shape and who knows what else also impacts how it feels.  These days I use almost no measurements on my guitar setups.  It is all about getting it where it feels comfortable and doesn't buzz.

The height of the nut slots seems to be the most important single factor in setups on acoustic and electric guitars, at least for me.  A good setup requires first intonating, then setting relief, then adjusting the nut, then the saddle height, then tweaking intonation.  Then double check and tweak the nut or saddle height as required.

Level frets are hugely important, too.  One high fret can wreak havoc, but so can a low fret.  Necks that have had fretwork or were not well made originally may need to have the frets radius sanded before leveling if the setup is going to be good. 

I set relief by gently capoing at the 1st fret and holding down (or capo if possible) at the 14th fret.  The strings barely clear the 6th or 7th fret.  Visible space but not more.  Call it a sheet of paper on the 1st string, maybe twice that on the 6th string.  I have a true luthiers straight edge (not a home hardware store yardstick), but using the strings has been good enough for me to set relief.

To set nut slots, I hold the string down between the 2nd and 3rd fret and cut the slot until the string clears the first fret by the same one or two sheets of paper used in setting relief.  Note that a worn 1st fret can result in slots too deep and thus string buzz.  So also check clearance over the 2nd fret.

For saddle height I get it as low as possible without buzz on either E string.  Then use a radius shallower than the fretboard radius to get all the strings evenly arced.  A fretboard radius of 10" would result in a 12" radius at the saddle, at least to start.  The high E string will be closer to the 12th fret than the low E string.  The strings in between will arc evenly but slightly flatter than the fretboard arc.  It seems to work out.

Then I play it.  If it buzzes playing open strings, probably I screwed up the nut and the strings are too low.  If it buzzes when playing in the first few frets, the relief is too low.  If it buzzes when playing in the 10th to 15th fret then the saddles are too low.  So I just tweak until everything is as low as I can get it without buzz.

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19 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

When I was young and had to check the gap in the points in the distributer I used a feeler gauge. 

The auto shop teacher in high school advised us that a match book cover was just the right thickness.  But that was back in the day of points, smokers, and auto shop in a high school.

He also threatened to fail any student caught pointing the timing light and flashing it at anybody.  Didn't stop us from doing it, though!

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13 minutes ago, Uncle Thor's Hamer said:

The auto shop teacher in high school advised us that a match book cover was just the right thickness.  But that was back in the day of points, smokers, and auto shop in a high school.

He also threatened to fail any student caught pointing the timing light and flashing it at anybody.  Didn't stop us from doing it, though!

"Timing light" could be the name of a band or an album, and it would go over the heads of almost everyone under 35.

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