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Ontological guitar question of the day -


LucSulla

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I was looking at some of the Masterbuilt Custom Frankensteins on Reverb and found myself wondering - Can you ding a relic'd guitar?

THAT cigarette burn was done by a master builder at Fender, which is the kind of care that made this guitar worth $10k.  But THAT cigarette burn was done by a drunk at a bar, making the guitar worth far less.  

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25 minutes ago, LucSulla said:

I was looking at some of the Masterbuilt Custom Frankensteins on Reverb and found myself wondering - Can you ding a relic'd guitar?

THAT cigarette burn was done by a master builder at Fender, which is the kind of care that made this guitar worth $10k.  But THAT cigarette burn was done by a drunk at a bar, making the guitar worth far less.  

I’m sure there are OCD hand wringers out in the world that have every little mark, scratch, and ding inventoried and will sell a relic’d guitar as “mint”. 

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Let's take Frankie out it.  Take this guitar:

DSC_0287.JPG?format=500w

 

I could probably have that thing fall off a wall hanger and you wouldn't know it had any aftermarket relicing done to it if I didn't tell you it happened.  And no, this isn't a subtle troll against people that dig relics.  

I just know for sure that if I put a ding on the above guitar and didn't tell anyone, no one would know.  But if I did tell anyone it happened in an ad, I assume buyers would expect me to knock some off the price for dinging it because it was no longer a mint relic. 

And the whole thing is just meta as hell.  

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Other than looking cool, one reason I like my reliced guitars is I don't have to worry about putting on that first ding. My most reliced strat is the one I usually take to the front porch while feeding Hamer and Shishkov. Sometimes they split in different directions. Sometimes I'm busy playing and don't realize one is headed for the sidewalk or worse, the road. I can toss that guitar on the porch and not worry about a new ding. Otherwise, I'd have to bring out a stand and that's just crazy talk. 

 

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This is my Nash relic S57.

I've added plenty of nicks and dings, as well a humbucker rout.  Worth about 1/4 the cost of a new Fender CS Relic before and after my butchery.  

As some of you know, I'm not a fan of subtle finishes.

 

P7080036.JPG

P7080038.JPG

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9 minutes ago, kizanski said:

I think @BCR Greg once posed the question, "If I polish a Nash guitar, is it suddenly worth less money?"

That's definitely where my head's at here.  

I can just see putting a ding on some collector's heavy-relic and having them lose it because it's no longer mint. 

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I remember once asking a noob question years ago (hell, it might even have been on this forum) about 'relic' guitars, asking if the fretboard (and/or even the frets) was REALLY gouged and worn...as if it needed a fretboard planing and fret leveling, or even a refret.  I've seen some vintage guitars where it looked like they had deep ruts worn in the fingerboard, in the 'cowboy chord' area...kinda as if the previous owner/player had a death grip on the neck when playing, as well as long fingernails.  Vintage authentic?  Yes.  Desirable?  Not in my book.

That being said, there's a '62 SG Jr. at DGS (no affiliation, BTW), that has what looks like the original black/white two-ply or three-ply pickguard, where one area has been worn through the black layer into the white from playing.  It got me wondering...has anybody out there started doing that to aftermarket 'relic'd' pickguards yet?

http://davesguitar.com/products/gibson/sg-junior-62-2/

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40 minutes ago, FrettyMcgee said:

I had to look up "ontological". :(

 

Me too. And I still don't know if I'd ever use it in a sentence or how it applies in this one. I think LucSulla must be a teacher or something. 

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43 minutes ago, FrettyMcgee said:

I had to look up "ontological". :(

 

 

2 minutes ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Me too. And I still don't know if I'd ever use it in a sentence or how it applies in this one. I think LucSulla must be a teacher or something. 

 

Me three.  My first impression was that it had to do something with bird watching.  It wouldn't have surprised me if the word was 'orthodontist', if it had anything to do with expensive guitars.

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So here's another thing - 

If I bought an old, beat up but still mechanically sound black guard tele, and I put an additional little ding in it - you know, like banging it on a door frame or something, it would not reduce value. 

If I bought this:

http://www.fendercustomshop.com/guitars/telecaster/1951-heavy-relic-nocaster-faded-nocaster-blonde/

and I put a ding in it that one could verify was not originally from the FCS, I don't think any of us here would be surprised if it DID reduce the value among the cork sniffer crowd. 

I think the ontological angle here is what is the nature of a factory finish and whether or not something made initially to look banged up can be further banged up.  Naturally, this could evolve into the epistemology of dings. 

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I think relic guitars are absolutely ingenious. They debuted during the peak of the vintage craze, meaning you could buy a vintage reissue that looked 30 hellacious years old at that time but pristine frets, unscratchy pots and switches, etc., like a new guitar ... at a fraction of what you'd pay for actual pre-CBS. The FCS pieces weren't cheap, but an incredible bargain in comparison.

Even more ingenious ... pristine clean body or neck on the regular production floor falls victim to simple human error, like a slipping screwdriver or a flying fret file, or dropped, or flung by the buffer. It's subsequently moved to the "relic" side of the factory and gets "real" aging alongside the factory mishap to conceal it. It's now no longer a factory second or bandsawed and written off material waste ... it's ironically now destined to be an up-charge FCS guitar.

I love them too. Here's my most recent electric piece for the shop, which I immediately upon completion deemed "not for sale" and sold my main tele of 12 years to help pay for it.

26113943_1775030779465765_88013550928866

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40 minutes ago, crunchee said:

 

 

Me three.  My first impression was that it had to do something with bird watching.  It wouldn't have surprised me if the word was 'orthodontist', if it had anything to do with expensive guitars.

Ornithologist, LOL

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12 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Me too. And I still don't know if I'd ever use it in a sentence or how it applies in this one. I think LucSulla must be a teacher or something. 

 

12 hours ago, crunchee said:

 

 

Me three.  My first impression was that it had to do something with bird watching.  It wouldn't have surprised me if the word was 'orthodontist', if it had anything to do with expensive guitars.

See, I thought it had something do with a horrible medical condition.....

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 I've had this bass verified by Fender as an "Authentic Vintage Natural Relic".

All I had to do was send a ton of pictures of the neck and body to Fender.

For $666, I get a certificate of authenticity for my Bass.

It's now worth WAY more than a Fender Custom Shop Relic.

I bought this '74 Jazz bass in a pawnshop for $64.64 out the door back in '2008.

I literally have nothing in the bass, but now with the AVNR designation, it's

worth so much more than an original '74 Jazz Bass without the Certificate.

I've decided now to strategically and methodically ding up and scratch all my older Fender guitars

to have them all Certified.

Then ALL my older Fender guitars will be worth A LOT more on the open market.

The Relic craze is the best thing that's ever happened to electric guitars and basses.

Here's a few pics of my AVNR '74 Jazz Bass:

12421192433_8941defa9a_b.jpg

12421054155_9fac37f2e4_b.jpg

12421581574_131ece8503_b.jpg

12421119685_0331daac8c_b.jpg

12421287063_78188d3aa3_b.jpg

 

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12 minutes ago, Texsunburst59 said:

 I've had this bass verified by Fender as an "Authentic Vintage Natural Relic".

All I had to do was send a ton of pictures of the neck and body to Fender.

For $666, I get a certificate of authenticity for my Bass.

It's now worth WAY more than a Fender Custom Shop Relic.

I bought this '74 Jazz bass in a pawnshop for $64.64 out the door back in '2008.

I literally have nothing in the bass, but now with the AVNR designation, it's

worth so much more than an original '74 Jazz Bass without the Certificate.

I've decided now to strategically and methodically ding up and scratch all my older Fender guitars

to have them all Certified.

Then ALL my older Fender guitars will be worth A LOT more on the open market.

The Relic craze is the best thing that's ever happened to electric guitars and basses.

Here's a few pics of my AVNR '74 Jazz Bass:

12421192433_8941defa9a_b.jpg

12421054155_9fac37f2e4_b.jpg

12421581574_131ece8503_b.jpg

12421119685_0331daac8c_b.jpg

12421287063_78188d3aa3_b.jpg

 

$666. Love it. 

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Why are there no stickers on relics?  There should be something for a radio station no one has heard because it is from the town where the instrument was stolen.  The only Fender relics with stickers have been the Joe Strummer guitars and some of the Custom Shop guitars may have had them.  There ought to be some extra screw holes and even mystery holes drilled into the metal plates.  The control cavity should have extra blobs of solder and gooey electrical tape inside.  Can they not make a relic with one mismatched tuner?  A missing knob would be an authentic touch. 

No one has touched the relic'ed case angle yet.  Someone could start a company that takes a file, a pocket knife, and spray can to put marks on new cases and then sell them for more.  If they have a bladder infected cat they can make a mint!

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7 minutes ago, Steve Haynie said:

Why are there no stickers on relics?  There should be something for a radio station no one has heard because it is from the town where the instrument was stolen.  The only Fender relics with stickers have been the Joe Strummer guitars and some of the Custom Shop guitars may have had them.  There ought to be some extra screw holes and even mystery holes drilled into the metal plates.  The control cavity should have extra blobs of solder and gooey electrical tape inside.  Can they not make a relic with one mismatched tuner?  A missing knob would be an authentic touch. 

No one has touched the relic'ed case angle yet.  Someone could start a company that takes a file, a pocket knife, and spray can to put marks on new cases and then sell them for more.  If they have a bladder infected cat they can make a mint!

Well here's my AVNR Tweed case for my  '74 Jazz bass with Vintage 70's stickers on it that are mostly local to the area.

By the way, this bass case also has an AVNR Certificate of Authenticity from Fender.

33324312490_aac5d347e2_b.jpg33552285432_5da53a13e6_b.jpg

 

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Perhaps the answer to the question has to with whether or not you are buying a guitar to play it or re-sell it? I try to keep my guitars as close to the condition in which I bought them, but if one gets dinged, I don't fret too much about it cause I intend to keep them.

That being said, my "relic-ed" guitars don't get handled the same way as my pristine ones.

I don't have anything vintage/collectible. If I did, I would try to keep it in the same condition as it arrived.

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4 hours ago, Texsunburst59 said:

 I've had this bass verified by Fender as an "Authentic Vintage Natural Relic".

All I had to do was send a ton of pictures of the neck and body to Fender.

For $666, I get a certificate of authenticity for my Bass.

It's now worth WAY more than a Fender Custom Shop Relic.

I bought this '74 Jazz bass in a pawnshop for $64.64 out the door back in '2008.

I literally have nothing in the bass, but now with the AVNR designation, it's

worth so much more than an original '74 Jazz Bass without the Certificate.

I've decided now to strategically and methodically ding up and scratch all my older Fender guitars

to have them all Certified.

Then ALL my older Fender guitars will be worth A LOT more on the open market.

The Relic craze is the best thing that's ever happened to electric guitars and basses.

Here's a few pics of my AVNR '74 Jazz Bass:

This is a huge breakthrough in developing our ontology!  It reminds me of the discussion of bare vs. natural rights - i.e. that we all have an intrinsic right to due process simply because you exist because the government tells you that you have it.  Not to get political, that is just the first example that sprang to mind. 

You have an authentic vintage natural relic because Fender says that player wear actually exists! 

What I'm going to need is for each guitar company to set up a verification process that each ding on my guitar is actually real, after which point, I can wale on it with a screwdriver end like Mario banging a question block for coins. 

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