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So It Begins- Gibson Implosion


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24 minutes ago, django49 said:

The antics (and apparent attitude) of the power(s) that be over there just make it nearly impossible to think about acquiring another. And that is sad.

WTF does that have to do with anything? You find a good guitar and purchase it, or you don’t. 

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The irony to all of this to me is that there was more than likely a point in time where everyone of us on this board swore we'd never, ever, ever purchase a guitar without playing it first.  But for whatever reason, almost everyone here caved.  And as it turned out, guitars had gotten consistent enough in the 90s that by the time we were buying them used off eBay and on forums in the 00s, most of us weren't running into enough dogs to stop us from continuing to take advantage of a much bigger marketplace. 

So really, despite the bitching about Gibson, the truth is that there are so many good used Gibson all over the United States that are so accessible through sites like eBay and Reverb, as well as forums such as these, that most of us here would never, ever, ever buy a new one.  Basically, a lot of people have been throwing shade at Gibson QC while also taking part in a used market that has to have been kicking them in the balls since the 2008 collapse. 

Kinda funny to me - at the same time everyone is griping about how bad Gibson sucks, there has never been a time in history where owning a solid Gibson was such a real possibility for such a wide number of people. 

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13 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

 

The Beatles lit the fire for guitar and had a ready audience--the Baby Boomers. The leading edge of the Baby Boomers were age 17 when Meet the Beatles hit the music stores, soon followed by the Ed Sullivan appearances and their first US tour. Now those leading edge Baby Boomers turn 72 this year. I'm a mid-pack Boomer and turn 65 later this year. How many more guitars can you squeeze out of an aging market with a range of of 54 to 72? Half of them are retired and the rest are planning for it.

 

"Baby Boomers"?  The era of the Guitar Gods reached its zenith throughout the 1980's, many years later.  

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10 hours ago, FrettyMcgee said:

 

Pretty sure you're right, sadly. As of right now, Cakewalk is finished.

 

I'm still pissed that Gibson bought out Garrison Guitars, for the sole reason to snuff them out.

Garrison was doing some quality work, and I thought their carbon fiber bracing idea was really cool....but then poof! They were gone.

 

https://www.bandwagon.asia/articles/bandlab-buys-cakewalk-creators-of-classic-sonar-audio-software-from-gibson

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8 hours ago, RobB said:

WTF does that have to do with anything? You find a good guitar and purchase it, or you don’t. 

Well now, that pretty much misses the point. When you have found things you like better, there is little point in returning to what were once old favorites, especially when there is ample evidence that the guy running the show either does not know how, or does not care to take the time, to make a product that can be counted upon to be "good" right off the mark. There are plenty of builders, at many price points, that do not have this problem. Seems to me that has been a pretty consistent theme amongst many of us that freely trade Hamers.

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4 hours ago, bkrownd said:

"Baby Boomers"?  The era of the Guitar Gods reached its zenith throughout the 1980's, many years later.  

The Baby Boom lasted from 1946 to 1964, so in 1980 there were baby boomers as young as 15 who didn't reach 21 until 1985.

Also, by the 1980s, although metal reached its peak, rock/pop music was branching out into a variety of self-sustaining music forms--rap/hip-hop, new wave, punk, pop diva, and although guitar-based rock was very visible and strong, many of the other musical forms were moving toward synth, drum machines, scratching, hip-hop, etc.

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1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

The Baby Boom lasted from 1946 to 1964, so in 1980 there were baby boomers as young as 15 who didn't reach 21 until 1985.

Also, by the 1980s, although metal reached its peak, rock/pop music was branching out into a variety of self-sustaining music forms--rap/hip-hop, new wave, punk, pop diva, and although guitar-based rock was very visible and strong, many of the other musical forms were moving toward synth, drum machines, scratching, hip-hop, etc.

The point is that you're talking like guitar began and ended with the Baby Boomers, which is not the case.  Many years later the children of the Baby Boomers were growing up in a world where guitar was KING, into the early 1990s.  You don't need to tell me about the 1980's - I was THERE among the legions shredding our air guitars.  At the time we thought of Baby Boomers as old farts.  :D  

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17 hours ago, FrettyMcgee said:

 

Pretty sure you're right, sadly. As of right now, Cakewalk is finished.

 

I'm still pissed that Gibson bought out Garrison Guitars, for the sole reason to snuff them out.

Garrison was doing some quality work, and I thought their carbon fiber bracing idea was really cool....but then poof! They were gone.

I ended up with one of the Canadian made Gibson acoustics that came from the Garrison factory, as they whittled down the supply toward the end game of shutting down completely. I did not know that was going to happen at the time. Good, solid wood acoustic though.  

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2 hours ago, Studio Custom said:

I find it hilarious that people want to be associated with Gibson at all and to the point where they put themselves through the grind to try many to find one that is decent.  Why? 

In my case, it's never really been a grind to find a decent one.  The answer to the second bit probably has a lot to do with cognitive schemata and can most simply be explained as "I liked Slash, and playing a guitar that looks like his makes me happy."  Superficial?  Probably.  But indulging my inner fanboy a bit seems a pretty innocent way to make myself smile in a pretty complicated world. 

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2 hours ago, santellavision said:

I knew when they brought out the Firebird X... it was over.

gibson-firebird-x-guitar-1.jpg

That looks like a wool guitar that got all out of shape because it was put through a clothes dryer when it shouldn't have been.  I have no idea what's going on with the knobs and switches, and I don't want to know!

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3 hours ago, Studio Custom said:

I find it hilarious that people want to be associated with Gibson at all and to the point where they put themselves through the grind to try many to find one that is decent.  Why? 

Image and brand affinity. The same reasons people bought Jaguar automobiles when the owners faced a near 100% certainty of chronic mechanical issues. 

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2 hours ago, Sugartune said:

Good, solid wood acoustic though.

that is why they bought Garrison, for the extra bump in stika spruce wood share, nothing else except for the write off.

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1 minute ago, murkat said:

that is why they bought Garrison, for the extra bump in stika spruce wood share, nothing else except for the write off.

Indeed. Nice Sitka Spruce Top on this fella. Kind of thought they'd be interested in the bracing system, but they didn't even use them in these models (Songmaker). 

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15 hours ago, LucSulla said:

The irony to all of this to me is that there was more than likely a point in time where everyone of us on this board swore we'd never, ever, ever purchase a guitar without playing it first.  But for whatever reason, almost everyone here caved.  And as it turned out, guitars had gotten consistent enough in the 90s that by the time we were buying them used off eBay and on forums in the 00s, most of us weren't running into enough dogs to stop us from continuing to take advantage of a much bigger marketplace. 

I used to feel that way, about things like trombones and motorcycles too. But I ended up realizing that no short test drive is really going to let me know whether it'll work for me. A guitar has to be set up the way I like it, with the strings I like, before I know if it's even comfortable. Then there's figuring out whether I like the sound.

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On 3/2/2018 at 9:58 AM, bkrownd said:

The point is that you're talking like guitar began and ended with the Baby Boomers, which is not the case. 

That's a pretty imaginative (but incredibly inaccurate) extrapolation. I never said anything about who invented what. I was speaking to the 80 million member juggernaut of a generation, which formed an enormous market. When the baby boomers entered their late teens and 20s, the colleges were overwhelmed with students. As I was growing up, new public schools were being built and students were being redistributed. Yet, 13 years after I finished jr. hi, my jr. hi closed down. It corresponded with the end of the baby boomers. There were no longer enough 12-15 yr-olds to be able to keep the school open.

By your logic, I'm claiming that the Baby Boom invented Jr. Hi, high interest rates, crowded colleges, and rising property values. They did none of those things any more than they invented guitar, but their massive market demands created profound changes in market conditions that exactly correspond to when they were the age of a given market.

Many years later the children of the Baby Boomers were growing up in a world where guitar was KING, into the early 1990s.  You don't need to tell me about the 1980's - I was THERE among the legions shredding our air guitars.  At the time we thought of Baby Boomers as old farts.  :D  

And at the same time metal bands were filling stadiums, we also saw the rise of New Wave, Punk, Pop Divas, Synth-Pop, Rap, and Hip-Hop. Just because your head was buried in Metal doesn't mean that summarizes all pop music at the time. In 1984, the baby boomers were a market of over 80 million customers with ages ranging from 20 to 38.

Speaking of old farts, the resurgence in guitar sales in the '90s was also attributable to Baby Boomers going through their midlife crisis, when they could finally afford the guitars and amps of their dreams. I was one of them. I bought a Peavey Predator in early 1997 for $159. By October I had a USA G&L Legacy and I snatched up around 20 guitars in that first year, selling off or trading around 14 of them. One day in July '98 I bought a G&L Lynx bass and an ASAT III.

 

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^^^^^^

There is something to be said for those that figured out where the boomers were going and what they would be needing BEFORE they did. At one point it was Gerber baby food, then Clearasil and Kotex (Invest! Every month they go in the hole and they STILL make money!) , GUITARS! (first as teens, much later in "mid-life crisis"), then cars (then, used '57 Chevys, later VETTES!), then rental apartments, then houses, now (or soon) mortuaries.....Those that understood this, AND the magic of compound interest, and the guts to so invest ;), are amongst those that were able to retire early......And have fun fooling with vintage/boutique guitars and other (now) more expensive ways to (try to) recapture our youth......

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Direct market only makes sense, though it's another example of the Internet killing retail stores.

I think direct to market sales will cause more cheap imports will fill retail shelves even more than they already do (if that's possible).

In any case, I f new players can't find a USA Gibson at their local retailer and never get a chance to try one, why would they bother to order one online? Sure, experienced players might buy a guitar model they've experienced elsewhere, but why buy something one has never even tried? I think it would make better sense for Gibson to sell direct to market at prices somewhere between wholesale and retail. They definitely need to find a way to compete with the prices of their own used guitars glutting the market.

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Speaking of old farts, the resurgence in guitar sales in the '90s was also attributable to Baby Boomers going through their second childhood, when they could finally afford the guitars and amps of their dreams. I ought to know; I was one of them.

I think that was part of it, but I don't think you can discount Nirvana and Pearl Jam selling an awful lot of guitars to Gen X kids.  I ought to know; I was one of them.  :lol:

And it wasn't just guitars, but the kind of guitars.  The rejection of all thing aquanet made classics like Les Pauls and Strats a hot ticket again, though I know Slash certainly did some heavy lifting for Gibson in the late 80s as well. 

Where I think your example really shines is the Aughts up to the housing collapse.  Gen X got hurt pretty badly by the Dot Com bust,  and Boomers retiring later and later also slowed down our earnings a bit as those upper management jobs really didn't open up the same way that they did for Boomers in the 70s and 80s.  This is to say Gen X hadn't quite socked away the same chunk of change as they hit their late 30s and early 40s as Boomers had, so my suspicion is that the whole vintage guitar market that just got ridiculous there by 2006 had to have been mostly driven by Boomers.  

There was also that weird bump with Guitar Hero.  Activision claimed that the game system was responsible for the 27% increase in guitar sales in 2007, which at the time GC agreed with.  Unfortunately for them, it seems like a lot of guitar companies started basing projections of the fickle whims of video gamers.  When Guitar Hero became passé and, at the same time, the whole world damn near fell into a depression, well, I guess there you go.  

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On 3/2/2018 at 1:55 PM, Sugartune said:

I ended up with one of the Canadian made Gibson acoustics that came from the Garrison factory, as they whittled down the supply toward the end game of shutting down completely. I did not know that was going to happen at the time. Good, solid wood acoustic though.  

Garrison also made the wood parts (pickup rings, TRC, back plates) for the Les Paul "All Wood" model. Still wish I had mine!

LPTLPANCH1-Hero.jpg

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Waaaaaaay back when I was a dumb 18-year-old kid, my Mom - for reasons still unknown - co-signed on my very first bank loan for the purchase of a brand-spanking-new, not-in-stock/had-to-be-ordered Gibson Les Paul Custom. Having outgrown a few 'beginner' electrics (including an Ibanez lawsuit copy that never played in tune), it was the guitar of my dreams. It took 4 long months to get it, but it was perfect. Until 3 months later when the fingerboard started lifting off the neck. It was fixed under warranty (twice actually). But I l still love it.

So while their QC issues are nothing new, every guitarist really wants a Les Paul whether they'll admit to it or not. All Gibson needs to do is build one good one.

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