Interesting UPS Shipping Story

santellavision

santellavision

Well-known member
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This is a new one and not a good one.

Saw this dude in a 3-piece blues band with a Fender Vibro King. He was just killing it. Huge, what a tone! So, I had to try a Fender Vibro King amplifier.

I found a really clean one. They were willing to pack it and ship it. It's a big-ass heavy amp. I made sure they had to include insurance, if something went wrong. They agreed.

OK, deal done. They shipped it by UPS. It was about 80lbs. Well, as you are probably guessing... it broke. It was packed pretty well, not up to my MOBW (Master of Bubble Wrap) standards, but decent. Something internal got damaged. Checked all the usual stuff, tubes, cables, etc. No dice. The box had some big, visual damage. It definitely got beat up.

So, I called them and they said; "yes, we did get the insurance and it should be fine." But, NO REFUND yet. I did my part for UPS when requested, took all the pics, showed the packing etc and submitted the info to UPS Claims for the seller. Not much else I can do for now. Waiting, waiting, waiting.

I get a message back from the seller. "Uh, UPS is denying the insurance claim because... YOU have 'UPS My Choice' on your UPS account." Now, many of you probably have this on your account. You pay a few bucks a year to allow free options for delivery like hold at UPS store etc.  Well, if you have this on your account, Insurance is voided, no questions, all shipper insurance is invalid due to the possibility of theft during delivery changes. They don't tell you this or as I checked, there is NO mention of this anywhere on the UPS website.

The shipper paid for the insurance, but they were not notified that the recipient has UPS My Choice activated on their end. They had no idea that their insurance would be invalid. They tried to escalate this, but no good. No other avenue to fight it. UPS told them, the only way to over-ride the UPS My Choice is to require a Signature or Select the No Delivery Changes button. The seller now doesn't want to take it back or refund me and is blaming ME for the insurance issue. WTF????

Here's where we are. I paid with my VISA, so I filed a dispute. VISA refunded me. I submitted all my info for the dispute. This should be cut and dry. The item I received was damaged and not working. That should be enough for me to keep my refund. Their claim on blaming me for the insurance issue is a totally separate thing and that's their problem, not mine. 

I will follow up when I get the final determination (any day now) but I feel I am in the right here.

ernie

P.S. Here's a question for you all... What do think will happen to the amp? I originally paid $1,400 for it with shipping/Insurance. So, he already paid $270 for shipping out of that plus the 3% VISA fee. It weighs 80lbs and is in a BIG, oversized box. Return shipping would be another $270. Add to that the cost to have a tech repair it. Do you think the seller will chalk-it-up as a loss and let me keep it or send a label for return?  I surely (Don't call me Shirley) don't think my VISA will make me pay for shipping it back, do you? 

Thoughts?

 
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That sucks dude. I feel for you. I went through a similar situation this Summer with a Fender Super Sonic. Major difference was shipping by FedX and I bought mine on Reverb. FedX told me to pound sand. Reverb gave me my money back.

 
As many dislike Reverb and Ebay, they do have a great refund policy. They require the seller to pay for return shipping and send a label for any damaged/not as described items. No questions asked. I've never had an issue with them. There is something to paying a few more bucks for that security.

 
Steve Haynie said:
Thank you for the warning.  UPS My Choice membership just got deleted from my account!  
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Steve, you don't have to delete it. You can just ask the shipper (if its a small shop or private person) to make sure it has 'Signature required' on the delivery. That fixes this 'Insurance cancellation quirk' in the system.

 
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As an aside, my wife and I have fallen in love with Pirateship.com for shipping stuff for our businesses via UPS.

One of the big reasons is PS's in-house insurance via InsureShield. It's $1 per $100 of insurance (cheaper than UPS on high dollar items), and PirateShip's VERY DEEP discounts for UPS easily cover InsureShield without eating up all your savings.

Most importantly, when UPS managed to lose a very custom $600 set of Carondelets I wound a good friend and client this summer, InsureShield paid out the loss 100 percent, within 24 hours of my filing the claim, and with ZERO disputes, issues or hassles.

 
Not really anyone’s fault, however, if someone has to be at fault (there always has to be), that would be you since your account was the voiding issue. what an absolutely crap thing for UPS to do. Life is turning into a law firm induced cluster. This is not the sellers fault, you should have the cc take it up with ups if that’s even possible. 

 
WiskiTangoFoxtrot said:
Not really anyone’s fault, however, if someone has to be at fault (there always has to be), that would be you since your account was the voiding issue. what an absolutely crap thing for UPS to do. Life is turning into a law firm induced cluster. This is not the sellers fault, you should have the cc take it up with ups if that’s even possible. 
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I think I would have to disagree. How would the buyer (me) know that's the UPS policy when buying anything? There is no place I can find on the UPS website that tells you if you add the yearly UPS My Choice to your account that you void any insurance claims on incoming deliveries.

Trust me, I have searched and even called UPS multiple times to research this for my protection in this dispute. Not one UPS rep or supervisor could tell me where it is posted on their website. (This could be a class-action suit!)

Ultimately, I feel it falls on the shipper to know the UPS guidelines before shipping as they purchased the insurance, not me. 

 
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santellavision said:
I think I would have to disagree. How would the buyer (me) know that's the UPS policy when buying anything? There is no place I can find on the UPS website that tells you if you add the yearly UPS My Choice to your account that you void any insurance claims on incoming deliveries.

Trust me, I have searched and even called UPS multiple times to research this for my protection in this dispute. Not one UPS rep or supervisor could tell me where it is posted on their website. (This could be a class-action suit!)

Ultimately, I feel it falls on the shipper to know the UPS guidelines before shipping as they purchase the insurance, not me. 
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The shipper doesn’t know the restrictions placed by your account. Had it been the shippers account causing this issue I would agree, but you were the account causing the issue, you had the check box manually checked and paying for it therefore you need to understand what you signed up for and how it can impact others, therefore you should notify the shipper of this restriction, you didn’t, therefore the onus is on you. You may not like it but this is how this looks and doing a cc chargeback is ultimately not good imo. I’d be interested to know how the cc company handles this. 

 
To me it seems like UPS is the villian here.  Who broke the amp?  UPS, not the seller, it seems.  Who runs the collect-all-premiums, pay-no-claims insurance scheme?  UPS, not the seller.

I'm assuming the seller is more to the "just a dude like me" end of the spectrum rather than the Guitar Center end.  The more the seller is making a business out of selling stuff, the more you can expect them to have sophisticated business policies and resources to absorb misfortunes.  Just a dude who knows that UPS, FedEx or the post office can deliver packages for a substantial charge, not so much.  Position of the seller on the spectrum is not clear here.

I'm glad the credit card refunded you - you didn't get what you paid for.  Beyond that, it seems like the seller held up their end.  Maybe shipping is a force majeure situation rather than a responsible service provider.  I'm not sure what justice looks like, realistically, if UPS is untouchable.

I'm guessing the lesson to be learned here, as just a dude, is to insist on cash-and-carry for amp sales to strangers.  Which pretty much means that I will have a hard time selling amps.  I could estimate the reduced revenue from the cash-and-carry policy (or resign myself to selling to a dealer at their "buy low" price) against the occasional (if that's what it actually is) shipping disaster loss, I guess, that that's what it would be - guessing.

 
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See, this is where it gets ugly. I was NOT the shipper nor was the shipping charged to my account. It was a business, not a personal seller. They used THEIR UPS account and paid for the shipping. Again, I feel they should know the rules before shipping. They never asked if I had it on my account. And, more so, there is description, small print etc or check box on my UPS account that states when you sign up for UPS My Choice, you are putting yourself at risk!!! NOTHING!  If you can find it, please post a link. I could not and again, I called them multiple times and they could not provide me with a link that states this. 

 
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santellavision said:
See, this is where it gets ugly. I was NOT the shipper nor was the shipping charged to my account. It was a business, not a personal seller. They used THEIR UPS account and paid for the shipping. Again, I feel they should know the rules before shipping. They never asked if I had it on my account. And, more so, there is description, small print etc or check box on my UPS account that states when you sign up for UPS My Choice, you are putting yourself at risk!!! NOTHING!  If you can find it, please post a link. I could not and again, I called them multiple times and they could not provide me with a link that states this. 
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By clicking this box or using this service, you agree to be bound by the terms of service. That’s what I was talking about before where the world is really going to hell with the lawyers. How many people download apps on their smartphones and don’t understand the vast majority of those make your phone into super highway tracking devices…because you agree to the terms of service through clicking the box or simply proceeding to use the app. It’s all kabuki.
 

Why do most drive throughs ask are you using our app now?  Because by doing so you agree to the terms of service and they will collect anything they can from your phone (browser history and gps location among many other things) to sell you their product and to make you the product by selling this info on the open market. 

 
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WiskiTangoFoxtrot said:
By clicking this box or using this service, you agree to be bound by the terms of service.
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So, by your analogy above. The Shipper 'Clicked the Box' and shipped the item without knowing the UPS rules before shipping. And did not ask if the Recipient 'Does' or 'Does Not' have My Choice activated. 

I still stand by my... I bought something, it arrived broken. I had nothing to do with the damage. I am not at fault.

 
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The service you agreed to binds you, not anyone else (although there may be a lawyer who will argue that, and there is another legal novel the seller agrees to when shipping, but those shipper restrictions apply to the shipper, not you). You already stated above you need to notify the shipper…there you have it. Harsh realities of the world, you may stand by your convictions, but it doesn’t matter when you click you agree. There could be fine print stating “you can buy our insurance but we will automatically deny all claims” and there’s not a thing you can do except waste 100 times the amount fighting a legal battle that you’ll lose before it even goes to court. 
 

For the record I definitely think it absolutely sucks for you, but this is precisely the world we are entering and are in. Read what you’re agreeing to, that’s why I never agree. When I’m interested in an app, and that app makes me agree to the terms, I simply won’t use it. 

 
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WiskiTangoFoxtrot said:
You already stated above you need to notify the shipper…there you have it. 
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Nope. That's just a suggestion. There is no 'requirement' for a recipient to notify the shipper. I've read the UPS "Terms of Service". Nothing that says the recipient has to notify the shipper if you have this service on your account. I still stand firm that the shipper is 100% responsible for knowing the abiding by the ALL the UPS rules before shipping. 

Now, If I were to send someone a shipping label generated from my account, then, yes, I would be responsible for anything that happens with the shipping. No question.

 
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