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Well, it was fun....... but it's over.


BCR Greg

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Back to the original point - Did Fender ever announce anything, or will this just quietly fade into the dark night?

It has not been revealed, not here at least, that they have released a statment regarding one way or the other.

That is why I, as I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, think that we should send them a collective letter signed by the HFC members asking they up front what is going on.

If it is signed by all the members here they have to answer us. Hard to ignore a question sent by a couple of hundred members, right?

English is not my native language. (Although I worked for a major American company for over 13 years and corresponded weekly with the LA and NY office).

But I'd prefer if someone who is good at writing up something formal would write it, other than me.

Who would be up for it?

The day Greg posted the news (and a few days after IIRC), I went looking on the Fender web site and in the business press (Hoovers, etc.) and found nothing. Since Fender never became publicly traded, they are under no real obligation to announce anything (no more so than Greenfield Hardware was required to let us know they'd stopped carrying hand made brooms).

Whoa... Wait... When the fuck did Greenfield Hardware stop selling hand made brooms?!?!?!

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Back to the original point - Did Fender ever announce anything, or will this just quietly fade into the dark night?

It has not been revealed, not here at least, that they have released a statment regarding one way or the other.

That is why I, as I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, think that we should send them a collective letter signed by the HFC members asking they up front what is going on.

If it is signed by all the members here they have to answer us. Hard to ignore a question sent by a couple of hundred members, right?

English is not my native language. (Although I worked for a major American company for over 13 years and corresponded weekly with the LA and NY office).

But I'd prefer if someone who is good at writing up something formal would write it, other than me.

Who would be up for it?

The day Greg posted the news (and a few days after IIRC), I went looking on the Fender web site and in the business press (Hoovers, etc.) and found nothing. Since Fender never became publicly traded, they are under no real obligation to announce anything (no more so than Greenfield Hardware was required to let us know they'd stopped carrying hand made brooms).

Whoa... Wait... When the fuck did Greenfield Hardware stop selling hand made brooms?!?!?!

Now I am pissed!

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I'd argue that Santana didn't sell all those copies of "Supernatural" at all.

Rob Thomas/Matchbox 20 were one of the biggest sellers when that disc came out. Rob Thomas sold those albums, not Carlos.

Getting back on track though, Mirrorimij/Bob definitely summed it up in that Hamers were actually priced BELOW most PRS and Gibson/Fender Custom Shop guitars, were often as well as or better made, but still priced above where Hamer fans/players perceived they should be. I placed 5 Custom Orders, and with one exception, will keep them all. The one I sold was a Standard I placed out of Arlington Heights, and I'd buy it back if the opportunity ever presented itself.

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It's my fault.

I never came across the Hamer brand until they had moved to New Hartford.

I never bought a new Hamer USA guitar. (Bought a new Hamer import once.) I just couldn't raise the coin needed for a new one, so I bought several damn nice used Hamer USAs.

So, yep, my fault.

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Santana is a bigger washed up hack than most out there these days. Guess his draw for PRS is the Boomer Generation Bloozedocs and Bloozelawyers (etc.) that still worship at the altar of Woodstock, Bloomfield and Bluesbreakers...

PRS doesn't really have many "A-List" players, but they just have SO DAMNED MANY players with their stuff in their hands.

Orianthi, Akerfeld, Navarro, that dude from 311...PRS is not exactly killing it on the endorser side either - they make up for lack of quality (of endorser) with quantity. They just get their guitars on stages and take out multiple slick full color ads in all the rags on a monthly basis.

Their genius is in marketing their brand. Like Gene Simmons hunting down a fan's last nickel.

Yeah, that was my point using Santana as an example. Getting the guitar into artists' hands, getting them seen together onstage, in ads, in interviews, etc. Brand credibility.

It doesn't really matter how old, tired, overused, compressed, collaborated, or irrelevant Santana is now. His endorsements almost single-handedly launched both PRS and Mesa/Boogie in the '80s when they needed it. He was a rock guitar god, and one of the few to break ranks with Gibson, Fender, and Marshall. Well before Santana became a historical relic, PRS and Mesa were solidly established and able to attract plenty of endorsers.

Did Hamer ever have an endorser of the stature of Santana at his peak?

Probably not, but Hamer had 'trending' endorsees, which can be extremely valuable, especially in today's market. In the 80s they had Steve Stevens, and Hamer named a model after him. They had Tommy Shaw and Jack Blades. Vernon Reid.

It was as if when the 90s hit, the endorsees dried up overnight. After I made my original post I tried to think of well-known modern guitarists who publically played Hamers. I thought of the chick from the Paul Schaffer band, and Tom Dumont...and that's about it.

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Love all you guys, but Santana a hack and not relevant is a stretch. So many different players and singers that made great music for so many decades. Millions of albums sold all over the world. The fact that he's a guest star on numerous singles as of late only means he's sought after for his identifiable sound and star name recognition. You immediately know it's him. Michael Schenker and Carlos Santana are two of the guitarists I can pick out of any crowd. Hamer is dead for myriad reasons. PRS is alive for myriad reasons, one of which is Carlos Santana. Frankly, I've owned at least a dozen Santana models. The scale makes me think I'm playing a mandolin. I've shown each one the door. But the man a "hack"? C'mon. He is, however, exceedingly weird. Schenker too. I've met both.

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I've met both as well. The difference? Michael S. still BRINGS it.

I've Seen Carlos play several times. Big PRS fan, and think the Santana model is cool, so no knocking that part of things from me.

That being said, Carlos has exactly one note, one tone, one schtick. It's the same thing he showed us at Woodstock, pretty much. Even seeing him live, I was bored to death. I watched Buddy Guy mop up the stage with him a few years back at a PRS event. Carlos' playing was frankly lame that night, yet all of the mid-'50s-'70 year old bloozedoctors kept raving about his "woman tone", because that's what they read on the internet and so they needed to compliment that. Sorry, but it was just really damned dull. A 22 year old kid (Davy Knowles) brought fresh energy to things and was riveting that night - far beyond an old guy going through the motions.

Not saying the man can't play, but he's no Hendrix, and is getting exposure these days on the back of a song that would have been a plunker if he had done it with anybody else at the time. It he an icon? Sure, so is Clapton, but really, he hasn't done anything relevant to the music listening world either since MTV pimped HIS brand in '92 with that "Unplugged" thing. I don't want to hear crap about that whole "Riding With the King", or whatever either. That totally SUCKED. :D

I'm a huge fan of guitar/guitar music, but when it just isn't exciting or interesting, it just is not there for me.

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Glenn Tipton and KK Downing endorsed Hamer, and Judas Priest is a high-profile gig with worldwide visibility. They also appeal to people from different age groups and backgrounds.

In spite of that, Tipton and Downing didn't have a permanent impact on Hamer sales.

Weird, isn't it?

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Getting back on track though, Mirrorimij/Bob definitely summed it up in that Hamers were actually priced BELOW most PRS and Gibson/Fender Custom Shop guitars, were often as well as or better made, but still priced above where Hamer fans/players perceived they should be. I placed 5 Custom Orders, and with one exception, will keep them all. The one I sold was a Standard I placed out of Arlington Heights, and I'd buy it back if the opportunity ever presented itself.

Well, that's where they they attracted me--offering simple guitars without bling or binding, but with top quality materials (e.g., 1-piece Honduras mahog bod, 3-piece neck, multi-coat hand-rubbed finish, etc.). The P-90 Special was a good deal at $1500 list, but when they offered the Anniversary/Artist Mahogany at the same price, that was a monster deal, getting a semihollow carved archtop for the same price. I played one back-to-back with a new SG at about $1K more and it was a cruel joke. I bought the Anniversary on the spot and still have it. The Anniversary didn't have the crowns and bound fretboard, but it had what mattered--1st-rate materials, build quality, and just massive tone.

I know that's a niche market, but I sure liked that niche.

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Glenn Tipton and KK Downing endorsed Hamer, and Judas Priest is a high-profile gig with worldwide visibility. They also appeal to people from different age groups and backgrounds.

In spite of that, Tipton and Downing didn't have a permanent impact on Hamer sales.

Weird, isn't it?

Not at all, because what is relevant today is who is playing what guitar today, not who played what guitar 25 years ago.

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Glenn Tipton and KK Downing endorsed Hamer, and Judas Priest is a high-profile gig with worldwide visibility. They also appeal to people from different age groups and backgrounds.

In spite of that, Tipton and Downing didn't have a permanent impact on Hamer sales.

Weird, isn't it?

Not at all, because what is relevant today is who is playing what guitar today, not who played what guitar 25 years ago.

Actually when they were rocking Hamers the most was when the brand was at its peak, late '80s/early '90s. Even Ian Hill was playing a Hamer.

The shredder era was a boon for Hamer, but I always got the impression that Jol hated it. Which is fine, as shredders went out of favor in the early 90s. But that didn't have to mean zero endorsers. How do you not parlay into sales the fact that the intro of one of the biggest hits of the grunge era IS the sound of a Hamer instrument? How do you not sign Ament to an endorsement deal that requires him to play a Hamer at all times? You don't see Morse or Petrucci playing anything other than Ernie Ball Music Man, ever. Because it's part of the deal.

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No, but getting close.

The old record still holds, I believe.

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I bought 5 new ones, including a custom order and a "might as well have been a custom order". Hyped them to anybody who asked. Did my part.

Damn right. Me too. 6 new Hamers, 5 of them custom orders.

I at least helped Jol gas up his Porsches a couple of times.

So... is this the most viewed HFC post ever?

No, but getting close.

The old record still holds, I believe.

88,000 views vs. 22,000 is close?

The Boobies thread (he said, patting himself on the back for starting it almost 8 years ago) is by far the most viewed and responded to thread in HFC history.

...and you're welcome.

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I've met both as well. The difference? Michael S. still BRINGS it.

I've Seen Carlos play several times. Big PRS fan, and think the Santana model is cool, so no knocking that part of things from me.

That being said, Carlos has exactly one note, one tone, one schtick. It's the same thing he showed us at Woodstock, pretty much. Even seeing him live, I was bored to death. I watched Buddy Guy mop up the stage with him a few years back at a PRS event. Carlos' playing was frankly lame that night, yet all of the mid-'50s-'70 year old bloozedoctors kept raving about his "woman tone", because that's what they read on the internet and so they needed to compliment that. Sorry, but it was just really damned dull. A 22 year old kid (Davy Knowles) brought fresh energy to things and was riveting that night - far beyond an old guy going through the motions.

Not saying the man can't play, but he's no Hendrix, and is getting exposure these days on the back of a song that would have been a plunker if he had done it with anybody else at the time. It he an icon? Sure, so is Clapton, but really, he hasn't done anything relevant to the music listening world either since MTV pimped HIS brand in '92 with that "Unplugged" thing. I don't want to hear crap about that whole "Riding With the King", or whatever either. That totally SUCKED. :D

I'm a huge fan of guitar/guitar music, but when it just isn't exciting or interesting, it just is not there for me.

I know what you mean. We just disagree. It reminds me of people that didn't/don't get Gary Moore. I thought they were idiots, but had to remember that this isn't track and field. It's about what each individual finds pleasing to the senses.

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Santana is a bigger washed up hack than most out there these days. Guess his draw for PRS is the Boomer Generation Bloozedocs and Bloozelawyers (etc.) that still worship at the altar of Woodstock, Bloomfield and Bluesbreakers...

PRS doesn't really have many "A-List" players, but they just have SO DAMNED MANY players with their stuff in their hands.

Orianthi, Akerfeld, Navarro, that dude from 311...PRS is not exactly killing it on the endorser side either - they make up for lack of quality (of endorser) with quantity. They just get their guitars on stages and take out multiple slick full color ads in all the rags on a monthly basis.

Their genius is in marketing their brand. Like Gene Simmons hunting down a fan's last nickel.

What amazes me is their exposure is the county market. I swear they are all on stage with PRS guitars. Except the biggest names- Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, etc. Everybody you have never heard of that is backing somebody you have heard of seems to be playing a PRS guitar.

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While I agree that David Grissom is a "World Class Player", he isn't a name that even 99% of guitarists out there know.

Yeah, wasn't he an astronaut or something?

:lol:

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Has it ever occurred to anybody on this thread that maybe a lot more people simply like the PRS guitars better? For starters, they weren't particularly derivative of any earlier shape, whereas the Sunburst has the basic geometry of a Gibson double cutaway LP Special. They offered a 3+3 direct pull headstock, bringing identifying features of Gibson and Fender together. Hamers based on that shape don't balance particularly well and are prone to neck dive. The PRS shape, OTOH, has an extended upper horn, placing the strap button at about the 12th fret for very comfortable balance. Maybe PRS had a better business model as well. For a long time they offered only ONE main set neck shape, one boltneck shape, and the Hamer-like Santana model. Scrape binding is available on the body only, no bound necks or headstocks. Inlays are limited to dots or birdies and you pay dearly for the birdies. However, you could get it in just about any color or burst imaginable, with plain, flame, or quilted maple tops, with or without the double stain. For all the sweat generated over bindings and inlays, PRS proved you didn't have to sweat over binding at all.

They flew out the door on the wings of those bird inlays.

Meanwhile, Hamer offered several guitars based on a not-very-ergonomic shape, with or without binding, dots, crowns, or victory inlays, almost always with a seriously good maple top, refused to do double staining, and was available in only 2 or 3 standard colors. You could get any color as long as it wasn't double-stained, but at a serious upcharge.

Maybe a broad color selection trumps binding and custom features. It has certainly worked for PRS.

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Whoa... Wait... When the f*** did Greenfield Hardware stop selling hand made brooms?!?!?!

Now I am pissed!

Calm down! It was just meant as an example.

Greenfield Hardware never stopped selling hand made brooms (though they did go out of business when Bob retired). :P

(haven't had a good broom since) <_<

FWIW: my opinion is that Jol seems to have been steering Hamer into what he has now: an ultra boutique custom maker at the top of the market. For that, one doesn't need the capacity (i.e., overhead) associated with even the limited production at Hamer's hiatus. His target market seems to have morfed through the Vintage Modern era - he seemed to be shooting for, as someone termed it, the PRS Private Stock market. I think he has succeeded toward that end, albeit, without the aforementioned overhead.

I will say again, to truly revive Hamer, the import line must be rebranded (Slammer, etc.) and Hamer must return to making at least some guitars affordable by the masses:

Sell to the masses, eat with the classes

Sell to the classes, eat with the masses!

I still get giddy seeing used Hamers up for sale. I loved to look at the new Hamers for sale, but I was highly unlikely to be a customer. The price of admission coupled with competition from a great substitutionary product (a used Hamer) in the market, a new Hamer just never made sense to me - I could take the other half to three-quarters I would have spent buying new and buy another used Hamer (or two). If I were a gigging musician who made money at music, I might feel differently, but probably not.

Now, if Hamer were still in the business of selling $1,500 - $2,000 new guitars, that's a market in which I'd participate (and would not expect to see five layers of binding and all manner of exotic wood, etc.). Specials, Blitz, (Phantoms?, Prototypes?) pay the bills and sell in sufficient numbers to keep the lights on. Endorsements and delicious CO's like the "Nightfire Tally" keep Hamer front of mind and keep the shop talent at the top of their game. My $0.02.

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