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Well, it was fun....... but it's over.


BCR Greg

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Maybe everyone you listed is on the other side of "damn near." Or maybe they've done a masterful job at portraying themselves as the businesspeople you and others want them to be. Your inclusion of Steve Jobs is a dead giveaway on the latter possibility. Maybe he started out as you describe, but he damn well didn't end up that way. Anyone who manufactures overseas is trying to maximize profits by any means necessary. Period.

It may be the credo of Anheuser-Busch, but not Anchor Steam...or Redhook, or Pyramid, Dogfish, etc. It may be the attitude of Microsoft, but it wasn't the philosophy of Steve Jobs--not by a long shot. There are plenty of people who started businesses to sincerely fill a need and do it well.

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Maybe everyone you listed is on the other side of "damn near." Or maybe they've done a masterful job at portraying themselves as the businesspeople you and others want them to be. Your inclusion of Steve Jobs is a dead giveaway on the latter possibility. Maybe he started out as you describe, but he damn well didn't end up that way. Anyone who manufactures overseas is trying to maximize profits by any means necessary. Period.

No, not "period." That's just the dogmatic opinion of a cynic. There are lots of entrepreneurs who've moved manufacturing to China because they can't stay in business otherwise. They aren't all greedy bastards. Some have to face the bitter choice of sending mfg to China (or Indonesia or Taiwan) or shutting down altogether.

Nothing and no one is perfect, but not everyone and everything is driven by some seamy underbelly. And Leo most of all doesn't deserve the ripping he's getting in this thread based on the flimsiest of rumor and innuendo.

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There are lots of entrepreneurs who've moved manufacturing to China because they can't stay in business otherwise. They aren't all greedy bastards. Some have to face the bitter choice of sending mfg to China (or Indonesia or Taiwan) or shutting down altogether.

The deification of Jobs over the years is off the charts, and your point above is just another example of it.

He had to choose (according to you) "sending mfg to China (or Indonesia or Taiwan) or shutting down altogether."

So, he had "the bitter choice" of shutting down (a multibillionaire) or sending manufacturing to these sweat shops whose labor tactics are just lateral step from slavery. These people are getting violently ill from the work environment, that is, if they don't kill themselves first.

He had a choice and he chose money over humanity. And yes...Period.

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^^^

Exactly. Even if JB wasn't referring solely to Jobs in his response (and I don't think he was), in general terms, choosing to keep your own business afloat at the expense of others who don't have the benefit of American labor laws and workplace regulations is perhaps the ultimate expression of greed.

There's cynicism, and then there's rationalization.

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Jobs seems to be beyond all reproach. The criticisms of the other billionaire businessmen somehow don't apply to him.

Classic cult of personality. As is the case, albeit to a lesser degree, with Leo Fender.

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There are lots of entrepreneurs who've moved manufacturing to China because they can't stay in business otherwise. They aren't all greedy bastards. Some have to face the bitter choice of sending mfg to China (or Indonesia or Taiwan) or shutting down altogether.

The deification of Jobs over the years is off the charts, and your point above is just another example of it.

He had to choose (according to you) "sending mfg to China (or Indonesia or Taiwan) or shutting down altogether."

So, he had "the bitter choice" of shutting down (a multibillionaire) or sending manufacturing to these sweat shops whose labor tactics are just lateral step from slavery. These people are getting violently ill from the work environment, that is, if they don't kill themselves first.

He had a choice and he chose money over humanity. And yes...Period.

The mention of Jobs was in the context of entrepreneurs and various business models. The discussion of companies sending mfg to China was in a different post altogether and made no mention of Jobs.

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I am not surprised in fact it really have been a question of when for me. The bottom line for Fender or any large-ish company is money. There just wasnt enough demand for Hamers to justify the cost of devoting highly skilled american workers and overhead to it. A small company can be happy with a little profit from a labor of love whereas big company says these resources can be produce more revenue doing something else. I cant blame Fender for that its simple and the truth.

Do I feel bummed? A little, but they werent going to make me my checkerboard standard anyway and that was really the only new guitar that they could make that I wanted. I can buy all the great stuff that they made now used.

Now for the real problem. The best used guitar value out there is soon to disappear as price go up and supply diminishes. Get ready and I hope you have what you want cause it aint getting cheaper.

Even with out Hamer the HFC is the best damn messageboard with the greatest members ever.

I somehow missed all of these discussions until Friday. Surprise? No. Sadness? Damn right.

The thing about the used prices, I don't know if I see them climbing that much. If the market was weak to begin with, I don't think demand is going to be that high. The brand has been struggling for how long? It seems as though the overwhelming majority forgot about them a long time ago.

I guess there goes my dream for a new Cali or Phantom GT....

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Jobs changed the world, Fender changed music... regardless of the inevitable distortions, right or wrong, long from now they will be remembered for what they made and not how they made it... period. :D

Agreed. Let's just dispel the notion that they were driven primarily by altruism.

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Jobs changed the world, Fender changed music... regardless of the inevitable distortions, right or wrong, long from now they will be remembered for what they made and not how they made it... period. :D

Agreed. Let's just dispel the notion that they were driven primarily by altruism.

That doesn't mean they were necessarily driven by greed, either. I'm not out to deify anybody, but if somebody's going to be demonized it should be based on more than what a co-worker said someone said.

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That doesn't mean they were necessarily driven by greed, either. I'm not out to deify anybody, but if somebody's going to be demonized it should be based on more than what a co-worker said someone said.

For the record, I didn't use the word "greed" initially. I just wanted to reiterate that any businessperson whose top priority isn't reducing overhead won't be in business very long. The extent to which that reduction is achieved and the methodologies involved are what bring greed into play.

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"Greed is good."

greed-is-good.jpg

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Here’s the real (according to The Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary) definition of “greed”:

“a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed”

And here’s the politically-correct (according to Wikipedia) definition:

“Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

As a secular psychological concept, greed is, similarly, an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs. It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, although it may apply to the need to feel more excessively moral, social, or otherwise better than someone else.”

I suppose having more than one guitar, amp, car, motorcycle, etc. puts a person “far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.”

I don’t think Leo Fender or Steve Jobs had aspirations of merely “basic survival and comfort.” I don’t and I don’t know anyone else who does either.

Have we drifted off topic or what…

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I actually need more than one guitar because each guitar invigorates the different creative centers within my psyche. My intention to have at least a dozen instruments at all times is not driven by greed, but rather my beneficent efforts to enlighten the world with the aural pleasures that come from the dulcet melodies of Alice Cooper.

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Leo Fender could barely strum a G chord...exactly the same thing could be said of Theodore McCarty...his biggest concern with the shipments of curly maple at Gibson was whether he could swing a big enough deal so he could have enough fancy wood to panel his dining room walls BEFORE he gave a whit about the tops of Les Pauls.

There isn't anyhing wrong with this; just remember it was all about business, and the aforementioned two weren't really very concerned with producing any sort of "magic" sound...they were about making a buck for their companies. I'm sure if either of them had even the slightest idea of what a 1958 Strat or a 1958 Lester would be worth 20 years after the fact, they probably would have stashed a few in a closet somewhere for sale later.

Also, remember the basic fact that in a blind sound test, 99.9 percent of the "tone snobs" on the planet, myself included, couldn't tell the difference between a 2004 Strat and a 1962 Strat.

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Also, remember the basic fact that in a blind sound test, 99.9 percent of the "tone snobs" on the planet, myself included, couldn't tell the difference between a 2004 Strat and a 1962 Strat.

I love you, man.

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I actually need more than one guitar because each guitar invigorates the different creative centers within my psyche. My intention to have at least a dozen instruments at all times is not driven by greed, but rather my beneficent efforts to enlighten the world with the aural pleasures that come from the dulcet melodies of Alice Cooper.

Very well said, Mr. Haynie. I'll have to use that one at home... B)

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Also, remember the basic fact that in a blind sound test, 99.9 percent of the "tone snobs" on the planet, myself included, couldn't tell the difference between a 2004 Strat and a 1962 Strat.

That kind of attitude will get you thrown the fuck off the Gear Page, guy.

So will a reply of "fuck her already and get it over with" in a thread started by a landscaper about how an old lady client of his had a habit of watching his every move whenever he cut her grass. Ask me how I know!

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I'm glad you said it, Muse.

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Jobs changed the world, Fender changed music... regardless of the inevitable distortions, right or wrong, long from now they will be remembered for what they made and not how they made it... period. :D

Let's get one thing straight: Gates changed the world, Jobs followed a distant second for decades. It is the 20 and 30-somethings that are too young to remember this fact and have held Jobs up to the God-like status he currently holds (even posthumously).

It was Bill Gates' dream that everyone would have a computer in their homes at a time what this was simply ludicrous. This is what brought Internet into every home.

You can debate that Jobs improved on Gates' ideas, but that's not the point.

The reason we are all here discussing anything on a message board in the first place is because of Bill Gates.

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...and Al Gore.

:D

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Jobs changed the world, Fender changed music... regardless of the inevitable distortions, right or wrong, long from now they will be remembered for what they made and not how they made it... period. :D

Let's get one thing straight: Gates changed the world, Jobs followed a distant second for decades.

It's not one or the other, it's both. Gates changed the world by mainstreaming desktop computing. Jobs changed the world by mainstreaming mobile computing...period!

Oh, and I've heard lots of people that heard from lots of other people that Leo was all about the bottom line, and saying so isn't demonizing...period!

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