Trems: Single Locking vs Double Locking vs Tuner Locking

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Definitions:

Single Locking: string locks at/behind the nut.

Double Locking: string locks at/behind the nut and at the saddle.

Tuner Locking: no locks except at the tuner...usually a Wilkinson trem, maybe a PRS 6-screw trem, or even a Fender-style trem (except with 2 posts/knife edges).

meaning, neither of these two pictures are Wilkinson trems, but they still have a 2-point trem:

Now, I've assumed that if you really want to get into heavy trem use, you need to have a Floyd Rose. Just lock those suckers down and go to town.

But it seems like conventional wisdom has become:

If you lock the tuners, have a straight line from the nut to the tuners, and have a two-point trem, you don't need to lock the strings at all.

But does that really have the same tuning stability as a Floyd Rose?

Or is it just that it is so much less hassle than a Floyd Rose that the minor decrease in tuning stability is worth it?

...the reason I'm asking is that I'm about to pare down my so-called "collection" by quite a bit to welcome a new PRS (pictures soon). Included in the ones on the block are a number of guitars with very stable double-locking systems. I want to know what to expect from the PRS: how well will it stay in tune? If I can't use the wiggle-stick much more than Bigsby, I won't get quite as excited about it than if I can do 5-6 Vai dive bombs on it before I have to retune. (on my double-locking systems, I can often do 20 or 30 or more trem moves before they start going slightly out of tune...but 5-6 would be enough to satisfy me).

So, bottom line:

Tuner-locking and Single-locking? Good enough? Just as good as a Floyd Rose? Or a significant downgrade from a Floyd Rose?

[cynic]

I'm not as wild and crazy on the trem as many, but here's how things have played out for me.

All guitars with a traditional headstock/tuner configuration lock at or near enough to the saddle that your "double locking" definition is never a concern.

My experience with locking nuts and tuners has been pretty much equal, and that includes a Bigsby. If things are locked at the headstock end, regardless of method, I stayed in tune. There are no hard and fast rules IMO, so you should make your decisions based on the guitars in question vice someone else's experience on some other make/model guitar.

[polara]

I've owned a few different wiggle sticks and yeah, I agree with cynic and modern conventional wisdom. You CAN, with a well-cut nut, quality vintage tuners, a slippery string tree and proper setup even get a 6-point Strat vibrato to come back to tune with pretty substantial use. Not Vai-bombing use, but substantial.

The PRS setup is my favorite. I can abuse it pretty well and it stays in tune. Well made unit, set up right, slick synthetic nut, and a very short straight path for the strings once they pass the nut. I think the fact that you pull the strings through the tuner hole pretty hard then lock so you have very little winding helps, too. I use four springs and set it to float parallel with the string path and it's more stable than my hard tail guitars, honestly.

Locking nuts and fine-tuning bridges are too much hassle for me. I guess if I did divey-wowzie stuff I'd do a careful Floyd Rose setup.

[Feynman]

The PRS trem is a thing of beauty. I predict that you will love it. I do realize that I'm batting about .000 with you though.

[it's me HHB]

I did "Beat It" like the record on a run of shows w my CE 22 last year. Starts from complete slack strings about as much whammy as you can do, worked great

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

The PRS trem is a thing of beauty. I predict that you will love it. I do realize that I'm batting about .000 with you though.

Aw, c'mon!

You didn't make me buy that Newport. You just told me where I could find one at a price that I could afford, and could sell without a loss if it didn't grab me.

If I hadn't bought the Newport, I probably would have done something stupid with the money, like buy another dozen Yamahas.

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I did "Beat It" like the record on a run of shows w my CE 22 last year. Starts from complete slack strings about as much whammy as you can do, worked great

I've seen a bunch of people say the exact same thing. I'm just having a difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that you can have that kind of stability w/o saddle/nut locks.

Also, I have a few Yamahas w/ Wilkinsons. They are decently stable, but I'm wondering if a) I can't get them to better with a little better set-up and if I can let go of a bunch of double-lock guitars that have so-so tone but stay in tune for weeks w/ heavy trem use.

I guess I'll know after the PRS arrives.

[Biz Prof]

I think that modern locking tuners have provided the quantum leap in engineering and functionality that many Kahler and Floyd users had been seeking for years to complement a good vibrato/nut setup. I've seen videos online of bar artists such as Brad Gillis and Steve Lynch wailing away on Strats (likely CS models) with six-screw systems with absolutely no tuning issues. Their whammy abuse was such that a '70s-era EVH setup alone would not have prevented their guitars from going out of tune, hence the conclusion that their Strats were equipped with locking tuners. I have a few guitars with double-locking systems and one Tele with locking tuners (to compensate for behind-the-nut bends). Both styles seem to do their jobs properly, but a good setup helps tremendously.

[sixesandsevens]

I have a PRS CE and it wasn't dive-bomb stable like my old floyd. It's good, but not the same.

There's another single-locking out there too -- locking bridge, but no locking nut. The new Charvel Guthrie Govan is like that, I think (uses a floyd bridge). I suspect that it's easier to get the nut cut properly and (if needed) use locking tuners than to keep the string from binding slightly on the bridge end. Plus it's WAY less of a pain in the ass.

[atquinn]

My Showmaster has locking Schaller tuners and a "Fender Floyd", which has locking saddles (like the trem on the Charvel Guthrie Govan model referenced above). It's about the same as my other Showmaster, that has a regular Deluxe trem in terms of tuning stability. And both are fine for the trem stuff I do. I don't think anything is as stable as a Floyd though. And more importantly, Floyds feel very different in operation when compared to non-locking trems. In that sense, nothing is really a replacement. But for me, locking tuners and non-locking trems are just fine.

-

Austin

[MCChris]

To me, locking tuners have more of an "expedient string changes" benefit than a "stay in tune after airplane and whale noises" benefit. If your nut isn't cut right and/or lubricated properly, resulting in the strings getting hung up in the slots, you're gonna have tuning problems.

That said, all of my trem-equipped guitars have locking tuners (two came with them, the other I installed them). There's no downside to having them.

Owning the Midlife Crisis Chaparral reminded me (hopefully once and for all) that double-locking trems are just too much of a pain in the ass.

[BadgerDave]

One other consideration is string trees.

Locking tuners on a Strat don't prevent the strings from binding on the trees.

Gotoh makes a really slick set of Kluson style locking tuners with height adjustable posts. They allow you to bring the B and E string tuner holes nearly flush with the headstock, so you don't need the string trees.

[it's me HHB]

The PRS teen is as stable as most locking non floating trems.

Fucking phone....

[alantig]

The PRS system has been bulletproof for me. About the only thing you really need to do is stretch the strings. And don't take them all off without sliding something under the bridge - you don't want t to pop off the groove.

Very cool video of Len Johnson at PRS changing strings on an older guitar - one with the winged tuners. Pretty easy to see how he stretches the strings before they're on and after, and it's locked into tune. In under four minutes.

[gorch]

Free floating trems on lockimg nuts should be a no-brainer, especially, on straight string lead across the nut. My guitars stay in tune even after Vai-bombs.

[Studio Custom]

While the gap between methods has shrunk, nothing touches a Floyd for tuning stability. A Floyd takes all the potential problem variables out of the equation. Is a Floyd necessary for most users today? No. Unless you are doing an 80s thing and need that perfect stability the Floyd offers, the modern options will probably be good enough for you.

[daa2202]

If you are going to be doing EVH/Vai-style dive bombs and horse whinnies, then you need a Floyd with a locking nut. For more restrained trem use, the PRS (and Ron Thorn) trem systems are the best I've used, with locking tuners and no string trees. A dab of Big Bends Nut Sauce (or similar lubricant) in each of the nut slots helps noticeably, too. A quick up-pull will normally put the guitar back in "close enough" tune with those systems.

[Biz Prof]

Fast-forward to 8:46 unless you must hear the unabridged history of Rubicon and Night Ranger. Looks like a Strat with a pedestrian six-screw trem, but one would assume it has locking tuners. Brad absolutely abuses it.

[Crimsontider]

Having to clip the ball end of a string and use an allen wrench to secure takes a lot more time than just feeding a string through a hole and having it secured with the ball tip.

[aknapp]

[DBraz]

If any sort of locking is needed on a shredder it's double locking for me.

On a Strat (where I don't dive bomb) I am not so bothered.

Interestingly with the PRS's I had nearly 15 years ago the G string would sometimes go sharp after a bit of trem abuse but quite often this was resolved by rubbing some pencil dust into the nut to stop it grabbing.

[tbonesullivan]

honestly, for what I do with a trem, double locking is overkill and a PITA to keep tuned. I have two diablos that I barely use, and which will probably be finding new homes eventually so I can get something like an SSH carvin bolt or G&L Legacy HB. Any two point trem that has just a bit of float is good by me.

[Tres Aardvarks]

Owning the Midlife Crisis Chaparral reminded me (hopefully once and for all) that double-locking trems are just too much of a pain in the ass.

All of my Hamers have floyds. Thankfully I'm only reminded how much I hate Floyds when I break a string (since I'll go years between string changes otherwise)