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gtrdaddy

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A perfect sentiment to be expressed by a drug-addled, dead white guy. By, the way, according to Jerry's criteria, I doubt this would qualify as music either :D

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Austin

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A perfect sentiment to be expressed by a drug-addled, dead white guy. By, the way, according to Jerry's criteria, I doubt this would qualify as music either :D

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Austin

And he would be correct in that assessment.

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I don't much care for rap, but to pretend it isn't a form of music is ignorant. It's probably more closely related to the origins of music than anything anyone here plays or listens to.

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A perfect sentiment to be expressed by a drug-addled, dead white guy. By, the way, according to Jerry's criteria, I doubt this would qualify as music either :D

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Austin

And he would be correct in that assessment.

Bwahahaha!

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I don't much care for rap, but to pretend it isn't a form of music is ignorant. It's probably more closely related to the origins of music than anything anyone here plays or listens to.

I would liken it more to 1950's Beatnik poetry recital than music. It is widely believed in pop culture that the white man has ripped off the black man's music; perhaps rap is the black man's revenge in ripping off the white man's poetry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNgrTTgwx7Q

"I know why the caged bird raps...."

-Maya Angelou

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A perfect sentiment to be expressed by a drug-addled, dead white guy. By, the way, according to Jerry's criteria, I doubt this would qualify as music either :D

-

Austin

Maybe if Jerry listened to it a couple of times, he would come around.

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I don't much care for rap, but to pretend it isn't a form of music is ignorant. It's probably more closely related to the origins of music than anything anyone here plays or listens to.

I would liken it more to 1950's Beatnik poetry recital than music. It is widely believed in pop culture that the white man has ripped off the black man's music; perhaps rap is the black man's revenge in ripping off the white man's poetry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNgrTTgwx7Q

"I know why the caged bird raps...."

-Maya Angelou

That stuff sucked, too.

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff. I'm not necessarily a fan, and can't really enjoy a whole evening of non-stop rap, but I can appreciate it (some more than others).

If spaced out hippies banging on a bongo with an organ blaring for 19 minutes is music, than so is busting rhymes over hooks and a sick beat.

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

I don't much care for rap, but to pretend it isn't a form of music is ignorant. It's probably more closely related to the origins of music than anything anyone here plays or listens to.

I would liken it more to 1950's Beatnik poetry recital than music. It is widely believed in pop culture that the white man has ripped off the black man's music; perhaps rap is the black man's revenge in ripping off the white man's poetry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNgrTTgwx7Q

"I know why the caged bird raps...."

-Maya Angelou

That stuff sucked, too.

YES IT DID!

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It's probably more closely related to the origins of music than anything anyone here plays or listens to.

I would agree that it denotes a direct style of expression, solely rhythmic; related to the origins of music; one would say primitive, that rejects the sophisticated evolution of music.

:D:lol::D:lol::D:lol::D

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

You're missing the point spectacularly. Rap is a genre of music. Rap as a genre is composed of more than the vocals. As in my Lamb of God example, you might not consider the vocals to be music, but if you dismiss the song/genre as a whole as not being music, then you're just an idiot and there's no hope for you. This is completely separate from you liking it or not. But don't worry, you're not supposed to like it, just like your parents weren't supposed to like punk music :D

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Austin

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

You're missing the point spectacularly. Rap is a genre of music. Rap as a genre is composed of more than the vocals. As in my Lamb of God example, you might not consider the vocals to be music, but if you dismiss the song/genre as a whole as not being music, then you're just an idiot and there's no hope for you. This is completely separate from you liking it or not. But don't worry, you're not supposed to like it, just like you're parents weren't supposed to like punk music :D

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Austin

I do get it; just being humorous. Thought most would see that. But name calling is uncalled for. I thought we should all be able to jest here in a friendly manner ;-)

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

You're missing the point spectacularly. Rap is a genre of music. Rap as a genre is composed of more than the vocals. As in my Lamb of God example, you might not consider the vocals to be music, but if you dismiss the song/genre as a whole as not being music, then you're just an idiot and there's no hope for you. This is completely separate from you liking it or not. But don't worry, you're not supposed to like it, just like your parents weren't supposed to like punk music :D

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Austin

I disagree. That Lamb of God track is music, not rap. Granted the vocals,are gutteral but there is an underlying melody in key with the music. Rap, is as Garcia points out, a "rap"... Speaking in meter over a beat. It is basically closest to the 60s beat poetry that was recited in candle lit coffee shops over bongos being played. It belongs in the "Spoken Word" area of record shops, not music, IMO.

I think rap is also similar in some ways to old hillbilly, square dance records, where the "caller" recited the lyric in meter over the fiddle and banjo based music. Except no one yells "promenade" in rap :)

Music and songs have a melody that can be written in notes. Rap does not, except for the sampled hooks from former hit songs dropped into the beats. But those are copyrights of the original work of other artists that rappers pay royalties to to use. The underlying rap "work" had no melody, music or original musical,hook.

But rap IS a valid art form, just not music. It is rhythm/beats with rhyme recited over it. HipHop that melds beats with some singing/vocal melody IS music.

Perhaps one way to tell one from the other IMO.......I seriously doubt that you will ever hear many cover versions of rap "songs," which are mainly personal poetry recited over beats...but you will eventually hear covers of HipHop songs that have vocal hooks and melody.

......but what the hell do I know :)

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Garcia's line "There's no road from rap to music" is haunting... probably because it's as true as all get out. The same could be said for punk and most metal music.

That said, there are lots of rappers that rap in a "pitch" that is very close to singing... I can certainly count those guys as musicians. There are also some rappers that have musical ability before they ever started rapping.

So, I sort of agree with everyone here.

What gets me is that... how much of a musician am I that I get to tell what is "music" and what is not? Am I to Guthrie Govan what Lil' Wayne is to me? Fuck yeah... Guthrie Govan would think I am not musical enough to call myself a musician. Do I read music? No, not really? Do I know any theory? No Not really. Do I know all of the scales and chords? No not even close.

I am a musical illiterate... rappers are musical illiterates... what does separate me from a rapper musically? I don't have one fucking clue other than, I have an ability to play an "instrument". Is the guitar superior to vocal ability? The public would say emphatically... NO!!! Vocals trump instruments 99 times out of 100.

So when calling rappers, punkers, metalheads etc. "non-musicians", I have to be honest and include myself with them.

But I don't want to be a normal person... I want to be a musician. Which means I have to fully and 100% agree with Austin that rappers are musicians. If I get to be a musician... rappers, punks and metalheads get to be one too.

I actually don't have a problem with the rap community. I am not crazy about the public embracing rap and eschewing rock and roll... that's more of a statement to be made about the public and not one about rap though.

I see rap as harnessing the talent and energy of the African American population in a negative way. I have always felt that we'll never have another Earth WInd and Fire because the next generation is concerned with talking in rhythm over primitively constructed music as their principle art form. That's probably again, less a comment about rap music and more a comment about our musical education system and the death of genius across the board through all genres. I think rap music is a frequent scapegoat... punk and metal are too although rap takes the majority of the heat these days.

Rap is cheap to make... and generates a TON of revenue. The record industry has made a literal pile of money off of this inexpensive way of making records. Rap music is also created rapidly, is easy to mix and can be assembled in a manner of days where rock and roll albums may take months to record and mix. Add to that fact that the rapidly and inexpensively produced rap music can easily outsell most rock and roll albums and you have a recipe for quick and easy cash to be made by the industry. This industry has seen their profits dwindle from their epic previous proportions in recent years and is moving towards more easily obtained forms of revenue... like RAP.

It's here to stay and will probably outlive most forms of "music" we have today. People will be rapping three hundred years from now, but NOBODY will be playing classical music by then. This is the planet we have, not the one we would like to have. I blame humans.

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Rap is music. I get that people don't like it (or haven't heard a song they've liked), but there's plenty of great stuff.

I have an open mind; I've tried to get it. If you're game, why don't you play some of your favorite rap songs on the guitar for us and upload it. I'd love to hear the music. Or, if recording the guitar is too much work, how about just whistle or hum the tunes for us? :)

You're missing the point spectacularly. Rap is a genre of music. Rap as a genre is composed of more than the vocals. As in my Lamb of God example, you might not consider the vocals to be music, but if you dismiss the song/genre as a whole as not being music, then you're just an idiot and there's no hope for you. This is completely separate from you liking it or not. But don't worry, you're not supposed to like it, just like your parents weren't supposed to like punk music :D

-

Austin

I disagree. That Lamb of God track is music, not rap. Granted the vocals,are gutteral but there is an underlying melody in key with the music. Rap, is as Garcia points out, a "rap"... Speaking in meter over a beat. It is basically closest to the 60s beat poetry that was recited in candle lit coffee shops over bongos being played. It belongs in the "Spoken Word" area of record shops, not music, IMO.

I think rap is also similar in some ways to old hillbilly, square dance records, where the "caller" recited the lyric in meter over the fiddle and banjo based music. Except no one yells "promenade" in rap :)

Music and songs have a melody that can be written in notes. Rap does not, except for the sampled hooks from former hit songs dropped into the beats. But those are copyrights of the original work of other artists that rappers pay royalties to to use. The underlying rap "work" had no melody, music or original musical,hook.

But rap IS a valid art form, just not music. It is rhythm/beats with rhyme recited over it. HipHop that melds beats with some singing/vocal melody IS music.

Perhaps one way to tell one from the other IMO.......I seriously doubt that you will ever hear many cover versions of rap "songs," which are mainly personal poetry recited over beats...but you will eventually hear covers of HipHop songs that have vocal hooks and melody.

......but what the hell do I know :)

Still wrong. That LOG song was the easiest one for me to find, but, come on, there are tons of metal songs with guttural non-melodic yelling in them. There will be variations in pitch of course, but rap has that too. So if rap, isn't music, then neither is that form of metal. And while much rap is based on sample music, there's plenty that's not, so that's not a valid reason to dismiss it either.

Music and songs have a melody that can be written in notes

Wrong! That has everything to do with copywriting and nothing to do with music. If I write a chord progression, then that's music, even if it doesn't have a melody.

And is this not music?

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Austin

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I'd a fuck load rather listen to NWA than anything Jerry Garcia ever did. The Dead bore me all to hell and back. Not hating on the GD - I get why people like them - but I agree with atquinn about the elitism on display there. I also completely disagree with his qualifying music as needing something more than rhythm to be considered music. By his definition, drummers aren't musicians. Really, what it sounds like he is trying to say in a gussied up way is that he doesn't believe there is skill involved in rapping so he doesn't accept rapping as music.

I don't get why more people can't just say, "not for me," without then making these arguments about whether something is or isn't music.

Last, it's not like rap & hip hop is selling all that great these days anyway. Sure, a lot of pop uses some aesthetics from rap and hip hop, but then they also still use guitars from time to time. Bitching about rap ruining music is about as hip as bitching about MTV not playing music videos anymore.

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It's funny to me how quickly we 'open minded' musicians vote "NOT MUSIC." There is very little of today's rap that I enjoy, mainly because it's been around long enough to suffer the homogenization that has been the end of every form of music. There is some rap I absolutely love! Give these a listen from when it was fresh and different:

BTW: I didn't watch the Garcia video as I can't stand TGD - I consider it music, but not music I'd care to give a listen.

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...

Rap is cheap to make... and generates a TON of revenue. The record industry has made a literal pile of money off of this inexpensive way of making records. Rap music is also created rapidly, is easy to mix and can be assembled in a manner of days where rock and roll albums may take months to record and mix. Add to that fact that the rapidly and inexpensively produced rap music can easily outsell most rock and roll albums and you have a recipe for quick and easy cash to be made by the industry. This industry has seen their profits dwindle from their epic previous proportions in recent years and is moving towards more easily obtained forms of revenue... like RAP.

...

I don't know...If you look at the top selling albums of 2014 for example, there are only 2 rap albums in the top 25, and that's assuming you want to call what Drake does rapping :lol:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2014/top-billboard-200-albums

Seems to me like the money's where it's always been, pop music.

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Austin

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... By his definition, drummers aren't musicians...

Well, that explains why GD had 2 drummers. They evidently needed 2 to equal one musician. :D

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Austin

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"Music is something that you can get better and better and better at."

Another interesting statement, since many have opined that the Dead got progressively worse over the years.

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