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Hamer Guitars USA might be coming back soon.


BCR Greg

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This in from NAMM regarding Hamer.....

我们把便宜的吉他,为愚蠢的美国人购买和使用知名的加拿大人,促进他们像贾斯汀 · 比伯和乐队。我们赚大钱,加拿大老板失去的衬衫。

Makes sense to me. (I read it in an auto-translator)

 

That aside, IMO, if it is JAM Music attempting a Hamer brand relaunch.....a smart way would be to utilize whatever might be left of Washburn's custom shop and bring in as many former Hamer employees as they can find and entice. Then market it as if the brand had never been shut down and emphasize how many years the employees have been there with a brand that has been around for 40 years.

1). Most of the buying public either never heard of Hamer or never realized it closed. 

2). Most of the public cannot tell the difference between a $1000 guitar and a $3500 guitar.

It will all be how good a product they can offer in whatever price niches they look to hit....and how well they can market it.

A so-so guitar with killer marketing WILL outsell a killer guitar with so-so marketing.

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Never2Late said:

When Shishkov announced that he was taking-orders for an introductory line of Chambered Standards, he not-only 'sold-out' of that run, but increased his output to meet the surprise demand.   And all that money happened in less-than one week, with zero advertisement in any national publication

My whole thesis from 2007 argued that basically, for niche products, being plugged into the hobbyist community was more important than traditional advertising.  I actually used a heavy metal forum I hung out on back in the day to demonstrate not only how little advertising was needed on the part of a band to get everyone on that forum to buy the album (which was generally, "Hey, the album comes out on XYZ day,") but that the forum would do most of the advertising for you if it was good.  Sort of how I ended up here.  I've always thought good forums are kind of the best part of the internet. 

I have a sneaking suspicion that forums like these are more valuable than social media in a lot of ways because I think forums build a better sense of community than a Facebook page.  But maintaining a forum like this is hard.  HFC is absurdly rare in how long it has been around and still boasts active members.  

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55 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:
58 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

I also see more if a future for the higher cost, boutique builder than a new "utility" brand - even with a distinct history.

This I will have to chew on. My assumption was that the lesson learned from Hamer was the opposite. If not, then, well, I'm wrong.

I basically agree with Nathan. To me Hamer refused to grow as a "production" builder, so they miserably failed.

Look, all the highly successful builders have import, American-made stock and custom offers. Those builders also advertise their products and look for endorsers. Conversely, Hamer only had import (poorly marketed) and custom (highly expensive and poorly oriented to their customers' needs/caprices). Equally, Hamer didn't care about endorsers anymore.

Any brand with the lineage Hamer has can reinvent itself by following the pattern described above. 

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1 hour ago, cmatthes said:

Also, to refute the point made above, in 1981 when I bought my first Les Paul Custom, which was pretty much at the top of Gibson's solidbody line, it listed for $1,175 and street price was $699 + extra for case.  A Hamer Standard was $1,500 without case, and wasn't sold at a discount.  The point Paul and Jol made about Hamer pricing was that they were @2x more than a comparable Gibson at the time, but in line with the growing value of a sought-after vintage piece.

... And to further put these prices in perspective, running those figures through an inflation calculator shows that the discounted Gibson at 1981's $699 is $1855.95 today, and a 1981 $1500 caseless Standard comes to $3982.72. (That should show what a generous startup deal Mike Shishkov offered for his initial run of Standards.) 

Also, 1981 was 5 years before Henry Juszkiewicz took over Gibson and began doubling prices (literally). When Henry bought Gibson, it was sick and nearly dead. It had been up for sale for two years with no takers. So Gibson wasn't making money at those prices either, even when adjusted for inflation.

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3 hours ago, cmatthes said:

Identity crises don't help...

Well, they did such a good job of fixing that--the early '90s Sunburst became the Archtop a couple of years later, where the base model and fancy models were designated "Archtop Studio" and "Archtop Custom." Then the model was renamed "Studio" which gave us the oxymoron, "Studio Custom."

They even dorked up the import line. It started as Hamer/Slammer Series, and then was split into Hamer (without the tiny "USA" identifier) while coming up with the really cheap'n'crummy "Slammer/by Hamer" crap. That totally crashed the perceived value of the Hamer/Slammer Series guitars, which were some of the best low cost import models offered by anybody.

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1 hour ago, Never2Late said:

That's nice, but....

When Shishkov announced that he was taking-orders for an introductory line of Chambered Standards, he not-only 'sold-out' of that run, but increased his output to meet the surprise demand.  And all that money happened in less-than one week, with zero advertisement in any national publication.  I recall there being people begging for details and checks being sent sight-unseen.  Mike's future looks VERY bright.

Some of us 'got religion' when our wallet allowed it - I had 3-4 Hamer USA guitars two years ago, and now I have around 12.  I have not considered, quite honestly, of purchasing any other make regardless of age, endorsement, or value.  I never say never, but....nothing else seems special or sounds special or looks special so why bother.  Let's not pretend as though the money isn't "out there" - last I heard, Suhr hasn't gone belly-up, and I have no clue why there are so many people ponying-up such big-dollars for a strat derivative or something artificially 'relic'ed'.  But that market is very large.  Any enterprise that can scale their output to chase the market demand they desire will find some customers if the quality and value is 'there'.

You missed the point entirely.

First, Mike was offering his "Ultimate" run of guitars direct at a once-only discounted, start up price.  They're more than double that now, if he'll even build them again.  Hamer was charging nearly $4k for a Standard by the end, and list price was even higher. 

My main point is that people weren't buying Hamers NEW, because there was so much affordable old stock and great collector grade pieces out there for far less.  That hasn't changed, and I can't see them making a $1,500 guitar NEW here in the USA.  If a NEW Hamer is $2k off the rack (at best), but you can buy a used one for 35-50% less that was made better (argument's sake here), few people are that foolish, especially when guitar music isn't really expanding amongst the younger generation that you'll need to help support the business and the boomers are shedding possessions at a rapid pace to try to shore up their retirements. 

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1 hour ago, cmatthes said:

Great points.

I also see more if a future for the higher cost, boutique builder than a new "utility" brand - even with a distinct history.

Keeping a roof overhead is always a concern, but you're not beholden to the bean counters and shareholders that have killed or decimated many great ventures.  You can be more nimble and creative if you can find a formula that works.

It would be foolish of me to try to persuade anyone I am NOT a fan of the "higher cost boutique builders". There is certainly a market for such products even though it is hard to believe the marker is not saturated. I could name several builders, but consider that PRS alone has now made something like SIX THOUSAND Private Stocks. Not to mention insane numbers of limited editions. And well over 200,000 total USA-made guitars.

While there IS a market, the challenge would be how to GET THERE. Mike did a great thing in reaching out to folks that already had a shared love of Hamers (and his work) and offered such sweet deals that he created a base to build upon. I will not claim to be an expert, but it seems to me that, in the later days, Hamer was pushing the prices higher and higher, trying to get in on the slipstream of a few high enders. As good as they were, they were not AS good. And the economy crashing pretty much wiped out any chance.

Case in point......I think the Talladega Pro, well equipped, had a list of over $6k (the first one I got). The pair of matched "Ultimate" ones (Talladega and Talladega Pro) which I owned briefly and considered my personal Hamer Holy Grail Guitars, had a combined list price that (I think) was nearly $17k(!!) Of course few if any ever SOLD for those kind of prices,...As evidenced by the truckloads of them that Willcutts picked up in a fire sale. I know some sold for something like 40% off (list) and some for less than half the list price. Which made them decent buys, but not prices to build a functional business upon.

While it COULD be done, it is hard to picture an "investor" (per cmathes' comment) doing that. And if the opening move is to flood the mass market music retailers with tons of "cheap" guitars that are produced to a price point and then leverage them into the same sort of prestigious atmosphere, all I can say is "Rottsa Ruck!"

For myself, I am off the GAS track for awhile. But I DO hope that there WILL be a Shishkov in my future,

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Most Hamers sold for 30-40% off of list.  Depends on how friendly your dealer was feeling. 

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7 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

Most Hamers sold for 30-40% off of list.  Depends on how friendly your dealer was feeling. 

That squares with my experience. If the '93 Special listed at $800 (I think that was the figure) and a hard case listed for an extra $125 (not sure about that number), then I got mine at between 31% (without case) and 40% (with case) off the list price. 

So, do you know at what point the brand started operating in the red? Kaman bought the brand in '88, so I'm curious as to whether the optimistic list prices and more realistic street prices varied significantly over time and at what juncture profitability began to wane.

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8 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

Most Hamers sold for 30-40% off of list.  Depends on how friendly your dealer was feeling. 

+1.  Back in the day (around 1990, long before The Internets), I discovered Mandolin Bros on Staten Island; when I was stationed in the UK, the base 'Stars And Stripes' bookstore carried their catalog.  They sold new regular model Gibsons for 30% off list, and thus I 'discovered' the joys of mail-order guitar buying.  I never looked at another brick-and-mortar guitar dealer in the same way again.  <_<

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52 minutes ago, crunchee said:

+1.  Back in the day (around 1990, long before The Internets), I discovered Mandolin Bros on Staten Island; when I was stationed in the UK, the base 'Stars And Stripes' bookstore carried their catalog.  They sold new regular model Gibsons for 30% off list, and thus I 'discovered' the joys of mail-order guitar buying.  I never looked at another brick-and-mortar guitar dealer in the same way again.  <_<

CMatthes and I bugged Stan and Jay weekly circa 1979-80, calling about their monthly stock list.  

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7 minutes ago, serial said:

CMatthes and I bugged Stan and Jay weekly circa 1979-80, calling about their monthly stock list.  

Ha!  I remember calling them because they had a toll-free number and would always pick up the phone to talk about guitars, even with a couple of middle-school kids who were a few years away from actually making a purchase!  That whole staff was great, but in hindsight, I always imagine them handing the phones off to the new sales guy when "those kids" called! :D

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6 hours ago, serial said:

CMatthes and I bugged Stan and Jay weekly circa 1979-80, calling about their monthly stock list.  

I sent for their stock list a few times in 1977-78. The result? I bought a 1962 cherry sunburst Gibson A-5 mandolin from them (just like the one pictured below). It seemed to be Jethro Burns "go-to" mandolin. Although that double-point design shows up in lots of Asian copies, that A-5 design as a Gibson is fairly rare.

front.jpg jethro-and-mandolin.jpeg

 

As I remember it, Stan or Jay answered the phone whenever I called, and were very patient about describing the stock at my budget. Mail order was so abstract and primitive back then. I got their inventory letter and a couple of mandolins interested me. Then I called, and they took Polaroid color pics of the instruments and mailed them to me. When I was sure which one I wanted, I called back to hold it. I didn't have a credit card back then so I had to mail a check.

Joni Mitchell's "Song for Sharon" refers to Mandolin Bros. but not by name. The link includes a pic of Joni with a mandocello at Mandolin Bros.

 

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9 hours ago, Never2Late said:

I recall ESP and Ibanez starting 'pure-import'.  Then, when hair-metal was the rage and all the 'big name artists' were buying their stuff but demanding customization, then came the ESP and Ibanez USA Custom shops.  First, you have to cultivate the market need, then it gets investment and then it happens.  If 3,000 screaming guitar fans, cash-in-hand, started banging on some corporate office-door demanding USA-made custom stuff, trust me - it would get made/sold. 

Yeah the good ole 80s.  They're gone.  Long gone and there will NEVER be 3000 guitar fans with cash in hand screaming for anything at the same time in this day and age.  There is not much of a market to cultivate for high end USA guitars at this point...that demo is also saturated. And anyone wanting to still shell out for a true custom , well now we've got Mike Shishkov knocking it out of the park.  

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1 hour ago, KH Guitar Freak said:

Would Mr. Shiskov make a basic bared boned Hamer style guitar? :ph34r:

Sure hope so. Those glossy furniture guitars does nothing for me. 

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35 minutes ago, jisham said:

Would Mr. Shiskov make a basic bared boned Hamer style guitar?

Contact him and ask.

While not exactly bare bones, unfortunately, my aspiration to have a long scale Ultimate was not to be. At least not in the next few years. :(

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15 hours ago, mc2 said:

This in from NAMM regarding Hamer.....

我们把便宜的吉他,为愚蠢的美国人购买和使用知名的加拿大人,促进他们像贾斯汀 · 比伯和乐队。我们赚大钱,加拿大老板失去的衬衫。

Makes sense to me. (I read it in an auto-translator)

 

 

15 hours ago, Ed Rechts said:

This fortune cookie is equally foreboding, Jon

小男人与大自我讲故事,但需要在口袋里的洞,所以他可以感到cocky,而不是在这里注意

Stop it. Google Translate is mangling the grammar.

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14 hours ago, cmatthes said:

My main point is that people weren't buying Hamers NEW, because there was so much affordable old stock and great collector grade pieces out there for far less.  That hasn't changed, and I can't see them making a $1,500 guitar NEW here in the USA.  If a NEW Hamer is $2k off the rack (at best), but you can buy a used one for 35-50% less that was made better (argument's sake here), few people are that foolish,  

Exactly.  Add to that the fact Hamer were somewhat reluctant at times to build people (who had the money) what they wanted.  Those same people turned to the used market to find something closer to what they wanted - ironically sometimes these guitars had "Hamer USA logos" and ended up costing upwards of $2.5K..

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