Steve Haynie Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Boomerangs on the imports have always been different from the USA models. Also, 12th fret dots are wider apart on most imports. I think it was only the import Duotone that had the close dots. Did the imports have victory inlays before the shut down?
Dana_V Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 http://www.hamerguitars.com/2017/ There's enough spelling, punctuation and grammar abuse on that website to give a person a headache. Way to stay classy, KMC.
polara Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 I'm curious about just who is involved in what ways in this enterprise. As I take it… JAM Group of Companies is a Canadian distributor with varying levels of involvement in the distribution of brands across several verticals, one of which is music gear. JAM "manages" (unsure if it's distributorship or holds a stake in… probably varies) several distribution lines Coast Music Erikson Music Korg Canada US Music Corp Davitt & Hanser B&J Music KMC Music Next level down, KMC Music positions themselves as a distributor of a ton of well-known brands, from Mono to Shure to Sennheiser. One is Hamer. For all I know JAM is a hundred people, with 30 in a warehouse, 30 CSRs, and 30 in Accounts, moving figures from one spreadsheet to another. Hamer is a logo, built by a contractor for a product line manager of a distributor that is in turn run by another distributor. The Hamer site looks like it was thrown together as an afterthought. I suspect the product line manager handles a half-dozen names and was told "Oh, yeah. Hamer. Order a run of guitars with that name from King Shanghai Almagated Heavy Industries. Fax 'em these old sales sheets. Looks like they were called Sunbursts or Standards or something. See if we can net 3%."
cmatthes Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 28 minutes ago, polara said: I'm curious about just who is involved in what ways in this enterprise. As I take it… JAM Group of Companies is a Canadian distributor with varying levels of involvement in the distribution of brands across several verticals, one of which is music gear. JAM "manages" (unsure if it's distributorship or holds a stake in… probably varies) several distribution lines Coast Music Erikson Music Korg Canada US Music Corp Davitt & Hanser B&J Music KMC Music Next level down, KMC Music positions themselves as a distributor of a ton of well-known brands, from Mono to Shure to Sennheiser. One is Hamer. For all I know JAM is a hundred people, with 30 in a warehouse, 30 CSRs, and 30 in Accounts, moving figures from one spreadsheet to another. Hamer is a logo, built by a contractor for a product line manager of a distributor that is in turn run by another distributor. The Hamer site looks like it was thrown together as an afterthought. I suspect the product line manager handles a half-dozen names and was told "Oh, yeah. Hamer. Order a run of guitars with that name from King Shanghai Almagated Heavy Industries. Fax 'em these old sales sheets. Looks like they were called Sunbursts or Standards or something. See if we can net 3%." I think that is the most accurate description of how that works that I've seen to date.
zorrow Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 May I say I love the plain Hamer logo without the trailing "XT"? The imports look perfect like that. I know it's apocryphal, but I still like it.
tbonesullivan Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Wow, that went south quickly. Anyhow, aren't there a ton of popular brands out there, music and otherwise, that are really "in name only"? Not made by the same people, or anyone related to them, like Gibson, Fender, and pretty much any company under that umbrella. In the band instrument world the most famous names have undergone many sales, takeovers, and complete relocations. The same can be said for the Big American motorcycle brands, Indian and Harley-Davidson. While H-D fared better in the long run, it too was sliced, diced, traded and sold, to the detriment of the brand and quality. If the Hamer name can be brought back, at the same level of quality with the same designs, I don't see what the issue would be. I have some great hamers, but I would love to be able to get one custom made.
zorrow Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 36 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said: Anyhow, aren't there a ton of popular brands out there, music and otherwise, that are really "in name only"? Not made by the same people, or anyone related to them, like Gibson, Fender, and pretty much any company under that umbrella. In the band instrument world the most famous names have undergone many sales, takeovers, and complete relocations. The same can be said for the Big American motorcycle brands, Indian and Harley-Davidson. While H-D fared better in the long run, it too was sliced, diced, traded and sold, to the detriment of the brand and quality. If the Hamer name can be brought back, at the same level of quality with the same designs, I don't see what the issue would be. I have some great hamers, but I would love to be able to get one custom made. ^True. My side, I see Hamer and Dean like two companies which are somehow related. I don't see why Hamer would fail where Dean succeeds... even if the business case doesn't look clear to me at all.
gorch Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 If Hamer would come back to life made as an import it would certainly improve the awareness of the brand as a whole and at some point might eventually trigger custom made guitars built on the original specs again. Until then it may safe the value of the existing 50k+ USA made guitars.
DaveL Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, zorrow said: ^True. My side, I see Hamer and Dean like two companies which are somehow related. I don't see why Hamer would fail where Dean succeeds... even if the business case doesn't look clear to me at all. The one thing I notice about Dean is that they seem to market their import line a little better. look at the Dean Dimebag ML, Chicago series, or Dean import caddy, DOA limited's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but if you were into metal, they are kind of cool... who looks at Hamer imports like that? Dean also has way better catalog pics, and their forum is on their web site. I agree with Rob tho, I like the 2000's usa deans, very nice... they were probably an even bigger mess than Hamer. Went to the Dean open house a few years ago, seemed like people are happy with them.
zorrow Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, DaveL said: The one thing I notice about Dean is that they seem to market their import line a little better. look at the Dean Dimebag ML, Chicago series, or Dean import caddy, DOA limited's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but if you were into metal, they are kind of cool... who looks at Hamer imports like that? Dean also has way better catalog pics, and their forum is on their web site. I agree with Rob tho, I like the 2000's usa deans, very nice... they were probably an even bigger mess than Hamer. Went to the Dean open house a few years ago, seemed like people are happy with them. I'm a DOA member and went to their jam and open house once, and it did feel like family, almost like the HFC. But of course, it did help having Gene as a host, stage manager and bandmate. Yes, their import line is taken very seriously and they do have some quality models in their offer. They also care a lot about their customers. When I went to Musikmesse, Elliot Rubinson sat with me for almost half an hour and we had a great chat about the DOA jams and many other guitar-related subjects. BTW, Epiphone is also having some success with their "performance is our passion" slogan and some pretty cool guitars out there. Why Hamer keeps on missing it, it's a mistery. They do have a history to capitalize on.
serial Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 34 minutes ago, zorrow said: I'm a DOA member and went to their jam and open house once, and it did feel like family, almost like the HFC. But of course, it did help having Gene as a host, stage manager and bandmate. Yes, their import line is taken very seriously and they do have some quality models in their offer. They also care a lot about their customers. When I went to Musikmesse, Elliot Rubinson sat with me for almost half an hour and we had a great chat about the DOA jams and many other guitar-related subjects. BTW, Epiphone is also having some success with their "performance is our passion" slogan and some pretty cool guitars out there. Why Hamer keeps on missing it, it's a mistery. They do have a history to capitalize on. It succeeded largely because in no small part, Elliott was passionate about doing the right thing by the brand and cultivated the label with its fans. A reconstituted Hamer, if that's what is happening at all, doesn't appear likely to tap into its pre-existing fan base or even concern themselves with anyone who might be interested in what made Hamer important to those who are or have been, devotees.
zorrow Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 12 minutes ago, serial said: It succeeded largely because in no small part, Elliott was passionate about doing the right thing by the brand and cultivated the label with its fans. A reconstituted Hamer, if that's what is happening at all, doesn't appear likely to tap into its pre-existing fan base or even concern themselves with anyone who might be interested in what made Hamer important to those who are or have been, devotees. I think you're right. I was going to say it's like "making the moves" vs "making love", but they're not even making the right moves.
tbonesullivan Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Schechter recently has brought back a USA custom line I believe, and it seems to be doing well. I also see ads in Sweetwater for higher end LsL instruments, which are USA made tele and strat style guitars. Ibanez and ESP have all been very successful with wide variety of price points that they offer. There definitely is a market for higher end guitars. The problem was, as always, marketing, and what they were willing to do. You had some cases where it was pretty much "take my money" and the response wass "we don't do boomers". There's a lot of ways to get the word out and market things these days. I also do think that having a strong import line is a good thing. It helps market your product, as it still gets the name and the shape out there. Recently in the trombone world, China is the name of the game. They will copy it, whether you help them or not. It's easier to get control of what they are putting out, and help direct it to make better products. Of course, as the issues in the South China sea escalate, that may not be true for long.
sixesandsevens Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said: Recently in the trombone world, China is the name of the game. They will copy it, whether you help them or not. It's easier to get control of what they are putting out, and help direct it to make better products. Of course, as the issues in the South China sea escalate, that may not be true for long. @tbonesullivan All this time I just thought you liked steaks a lot!
tbonesullivan Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 I can't deny that I do. BONE IN is the way to be. Though, I also think I own more trombones than Hamers. Or maybe they are equal. 7 trombones. 7 hamers.
JohnnyB Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Wow. Nine pages of responses in just a week with speculation all over the map. It's obvious this product offering is imports--no "USA" on the headstock, the widely spaced dots at the 12th fret, and the coup de grace, "Duncan designed" pickups, and a price range of $599.99 to $799.99 at Sweetwater. They're not even expensive enough to be MIK.
tbonesullivan Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Somehow I don't think thing Greg started this thread to talk about the return of the Hamer XT series.
JohnnyB Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said: Somehow I don't think thing Greg started this thread to talk about the return of the Hamer XT series. Nor do I. But his sources at NAMM evidently indicated the return of Hamer USA, and within days we see a lineup of imports, already for sale at Sweetwater. Is this maybe a JAM trial run to see if there's still interest in the brand, or is this the de-evolution of the original rumor?
Hamer_SS_guy Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 If they get very good luthiers and do the traditional stuff the people expect them to do, and do crazy customer wishes, why not? I heard people say, it's the wrong tools, not the same people. If you do customer wishes, then the creative part might be up to the customer anyway. I mean, look at all the Strat or Tele-type guitars, ESP, Suhr, Nash or whatever. Their "Strats" or "Teles" are hardly original designs, nor did they use Fender's tooling. Even Fenders aren't produced the way they were. If I wanted a Californian or a cool 12-string Firebird bass or a Steve Stevens I custom made, wouldn't it be cool if it also said HAMER USA on the headstock? I don't know what models Mike produces under the Shishkov label, but they might be mostly his own designs. And I wish him all the best too. Would I buy a custom USA Hamer guitar or bass? Well, I don't think so, as I am in Europe, so a USA custom guitar is just too expensive anyway. I don't know what Hamer USA will offer anyway. When I became a fan, Hamer had a great german distributor. And Hamer had series guitars of great quality that did just cost as much as a Fender US Strat. I don't think I'd see US Hamer guitars at that pricepoint in Germany. Another thing is that here in Germany there are also some fine luthiers who'd do an equally fine custom job for less than a US custom guitar would cost. Yet another reason not to buy another Hamer is that I have several great Hamer guitars, I am close to 50 now and the local music scene has changed a lot. I feel like a loner or even an outcast as I am not into 90's, alternative, indie, punk or metal stuff. That is what's popular with most people here. The bad thing is that most people don't even seem to know any music before 1990. The setlists of the rock cover band scene here are as bad as almost everywhere. What do I need a new guitar for?
murkat Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 11:56 AM, Northfield said: fact that there is a process that makes a Hamer a Hamer. The process. Your going to need the recipe in order to do it right.
atquinn Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 9 hours ago, Steve Haynie said: ...Did the imports have victory inlays before the shut down? Yes. - Austin
cmatthes Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 6 hours ago, gorch said: If Hamer would come back to life made as an import it would certainly improve the awareness of the brand as a whole and at some point might eventually trigger custom made guitars built on the original specs again. Until then it may safe the value of the existing 50k+ USA made guitars. It didn't do shit for Hamer the entire two decades they had imports out before, except kind of crap up the name and confuse people in the end.
zorrow Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, cmatthes said: It didn't do shit for Hamer the entire two decades they had imports out before, except kind of crap up the name and confuse people in the end. What if I told you the Slammer Series did introduce me to the brand and also inspired me to eventually get me a Hamer USA? I've also seen more than one HFC'er coming here as import owners first, and then moving into "the real thing". So, an import line isn't a bad thing per-se. IMHO, the problem with Hamer was Jol's lack of intention of making the brand bigger. He was happy with the boutique/niche model, but that model wouldn't work under big companies not sharing his desires/vision. Post-90's, Hamer didn't look for endorsements, didn't build what the higher-end customers wanted and didn't advertise at all (I used to buy lotta Guitar magazines and Hamer was almost never advertised). Let's assume now a qualified American builder can build quality guitars at an interesting price point, no matter how loyal those guitars would be to the Hamer originals. If they put the brand upfront, capitalizing on their past glories, if they sign a couple of key players from modern bands (as well as some oldies) and if they advertise properly, the only thing you need to have a bunch of new Hamer USA axes around is the legal right to do so.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 35 minutes ago, zorrow said: What if I told you the Slammer Series did introduce me to the brand and also inspired me to eventually get me a Hamer USA? I've also seen more than one HFC'er coming here as import owners first, and then moving into "the real thing". So, an import line isn't a bad thing per-se. IMHO, the problem with Hamer was Jol's lack of intention of making the brand bigger. He was happy with the boutique/niche model, but that model wouldn't work under big companies not sharing his desires/vision. Post-90's, Hamer didn't look for endorsements, didn't build what the higher-end customers wanted and didn't advertise at all (I used to buy lotta Guitar magazines and Hamer was almost never advertised). Let's assume now a qualified American builder can build quality guitars at an interesting price point, no matter how loyal those guitars would be to the Hamer originals. If they put the brand upfront, capitalizing on their past glories, if they sign a couple of key players from modern bands (as well as some oldies) and if they advertise properly, the only thing you need to have a bunch of new Hamer USA axes around is the legal right to do so. Me, too, and I think I dragged Toadroller and Crimsontider along with me.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 10 pages of thoughts and arguments are too many for me to catch up on right now. So I'll just say my piece, and then be moseying along. I was previously on record stating that at this point, even if the Hamer USA name were resurrected, it wouldn't really be Hamer USA guitars, because there would be no continuity from the previous version. However, I'm going to change my mind on that. First, if BCR Greg is involved, I think few people know about the quality and craftsmanship of the previous Hamer like Greg did, as a guitar repairer (and builder?) and seller. He put in mass orders based on what he knew customers would like, and some of these have become like legend, like the BCR Jr. Maybe that was the only time he did that, but maybe not. I don't know. The point is, it isn't going to be easy to truly resurrect Hamer USA. There are excellent builders all over the place, including in Korea, Japan, Indonesia, and the US. It isn't the builders that will make a difference. First, there has to be some design elements that are Hamer USA. The shape of the Sunburst/Archtop/Studio/Special. The seasoned, 3-piece necks. The set-neck Chaparral. The Triple Threat. The Tally, the Monaco, and the Newport. The Improv. There has to be a few Virtuosoes! made. A Californian with boomers on ebony. Maybe a few with LEDs. Gotta do some special orders for the famous, so that there will be more guitars like the Zaza Spiderman, and the Reid tumbling boomers. Then, of course, there must be top-notch quality control. We laugh about Pizza Day, but that was something we just dealt with. If the new Hamer USA lets things like that out of the factory in the first few years, it will be a death knell. Third, there's gotta be some persistence. It's going to be a tough road to travel. There are so many boutique builders now, and Hamer has been gone long enough that the artists aren't going to flock to Hamer just to have one for a performance. The New Hamer USA may have to struggle for several years, offering some guitars within reach of the working man (like a modern Diablo or basic Special) as well as the boutique guitars like the Triple Threat and Electraglide, as well as some eyeball- and headline-catching one-off custom orders. If a new Hamer USA can survive a decade, then we may be able to truly rest easy that Hamer USA is truly back.
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