I'm trying out a Fractal AX8

[polara]

The situation: Electronic rock duo. Two vocals, an iPad and a synth go into a passive mixer and then into a QSC 2000-watt powered subwoofer and two QSC 1000-watt mains. We use this for rehearsal but find it's handy to have a decent PA for the odd private party gig. I use a boo-teek tweed Deluxe kind of amp, 35 watts and a 12-inch speaker plus some pedals.

Challenge: We don't have to be loud in rehearsals since we don't have a drummer, and I'd like to play quietly so I can still hear when I'm retired. Rehearsals or live, my amp is pretty loud: no master volume, so I keep it between 1 and 2 and and it bangs out plenty of volume. Another challenge is just bulk. Pedalboard and amp, three power outlets (it's amazing how often you show up and power is a challenge.) Finally, patch cables do occasionally pop loose in transit, knobs get bumped, arms get tired.

What I'm trying out: Guy on Craigslist had a brand-new (in the box, plastic wrap, receipt) Fractal AX8 he was selling for a couple hundred off the new price. He said he hated the programming aspect of it. I feel like if the Fractal works out, I can sell my amp and the half-dozen Mad Professor pedals for more than the Fractal cost me. If it doesn't, I'll Reverb the AX8 and maybe lose fifty bucks.

Setting it up: It's not easy, using the built-in contols. Fractal has not gone for an intuitive UX on this unit, and instead emphasized amp modeling, flexibility, and sturdy construction, while minimizing anything breakable or not related to functionality. Okay. The computer software though is easier. It connected the unit to my Mac easily, and the online-only manual is good. It does help to read the manual to understand stuff like shunting blocks. The flexibility in setting it up is pretty intimidating, but once you decide on whether you want to use just presets (basically 512 (!) pedalboards and you switch eight buttons on an off like they're stompboxes) or scenes within the presets (where each button in a preset controls a combination of effects) or both (this is cool but it'll take me time to train myself how to do that) it gets easier. I set up one preset like a pedalboard (mirroring my pedalboard, mostly) that is input > fuzz > OD > amp > cabinet > octave pedal > tremolo > rotary speaker > small delay > space delay > output. That's way more pedals than I need - two delays and two modulations? - but hey, it has eight buttons, so why not. I spent a lot of time getting these in the ballpark, after copying the basic amp and cabinet blocks from an existing preset I liked. Then I assigned the four effects I use the most to the bottom row of buttons, and the three I only use for wacky stuff to the top row. Stuck pieces of tape to remind myself what they were.

First rehearsal: Super-simple to get the level right in the PA. Cleans sounded wonderful, no tweaks necessary. OD was okay but not sensational, needed less midrange and more output: easy tweak because there are big physical knobs on the unit and you can save fast. Fuzz sounded pretty shitty, muddy. Back to the drawing board on that. The modulations and delays were superb, no issues at all. The way the guitar is literally in the mix with everything else is revolutionary in how we hear ourselves. It's so different from having an amp behind me that I feel as if I'm listening to our album, not playing live. I like it from the perspective of anyone who is not an old-school guitarist, but I miss the physical sensation of of having my ass blasted with tube sound (that sounds nasty).

Thoughts: My mind is convinced this is the way to go. My heart is not. The initial setup takes literally a hundred times the work of just sticking some pedals in front of a good amp. It's harder to just think "want more gain tonight" and reach down and twist a knob. But the possibilities to change seamlessly from chugging high-gain to a clean with a bit of delay, the potential for wild stuff like adding a ring modulator to a song for free instead of buying a pedal you only use occasionally, the instant setup in a live situation, the controllable volume... pretty great. And the sounds are good. The amps are so good that I feel it's just preference now. If you grew up (hypothetically) on a Fractal product and were then offered a selection of tube amps, I think you might actually feel limited and disappointed. I'm not happy about the OD and fuzz, but think I can get there by trying more models and EQ. The other effects are sensational: even the octave tracks perfectly. It's still a "wait and see" for me, but with a little more time I think I'll end up with a reliable, consistent, versatile setup. Just wish the initial setup wasn't like planning a space voyage.

[Studio Custom]

4 minutes ago, polara said:

 The initial setup takes literally a hundred times the work of just sticking some pedals in front of a good amp.

And how much time, energy and money do you extend chasing the next best pedal on earth? 

[polara]

6 minutes ago, Studio Custom said:

And how much time, energy and money do you extend chasing the next best pedal on earth? 

Absolutely none. I just stick with a handful of basic pedals, and don't have any spares. That's never really been my thing. Now though, in recording I'll try all kinds of wacky plugins!

[Disturber]

I'm sayin' it as Mårten in Meshuggah says it, about moddeling amps vs real men amps:

[HAMERMAN]

Definitely interested in hearing how this progresses over time.

In my limited modeler experience the clean sounds are easier to dial in than the distorted tones. One of the biggest problems is that I generally dial in at home through headphones or at low volumes so things sound a lot different at rehearsal. Even if I did dial in at the correct volume through the same amp setup (an Atomic Reactor 50W 112 full range) it doesn't account for where I sit in the mix compared to the other guitarist and if my sound has enough cut but I suppose that problem can happen with standard rigs too.

I am definitely not a "golden ears" type and playing a CD though a PA it generally sounds pretty decent to me unless the PA sucks. However if I am playing my guitar through a modeler into the PA all of a sudden I can easily hear the differences going from one PA to another. You are off to a great start by using a great quality PA that's got plenty of power.

 

[polara]

2 hours ago, HAMERMAN said:

...the clean sounds are easier to dial in than the distorted tones. One of the biggest problems is that I generally dial in at home through headphones or at low volumes so things sound a lot different at rehearsal.

 

This. I'm finding I need to increase the output on distortions while lowering the gain. Also switching different amp models can be surprising in terms of volume change. Fortunately I'm just using one amp model, and the physical knobs on the Fractal are useful for when the volume is up and you realize you need an adjustment. I used a Boss GT-8 (I think... it was some kind of GT) for about a year and it actually was pretty good, but never as good as the VST plug-ins in a digital recording environment. I went back to traditional gear. I don't expect the Fractal to sound "better" than the stuff I use, but for this band, I think it could be good.

• First, we're doing loops and backing tracks and synth stuff and drum machines. We're not very "organic" sounding.
• Second, because of our geek duo nature, we don't have any other amps on stage. I'm thinking we'll sound more balanced, more "whole" if every instrument goes into the PA.
• Third, we're mostly either really clean or really high-gain on the guitar sounds, and on the recordings I do weird stuff with reversed parts, bitcrushed sounds, chopped up bits. Pretty much ideal for a digital rig. My possibly Most Favoritest Band On Earth, Failure, use Fractal stuff and their sound is astonishing, live and in the studio. I met those guys and checked out their gear and sound-check. Very educational. 
• Most of all, I just want to carry one box, put it on the floor, turn it on, and go.

I doubt I'd go this route if I were in a more usual band, especially one with another guitarist. People swear they can do anything with modeling, but I dunno if I'd use this to do some kind of roots/American/blues sound. I may sell it, becuause I am not yet convinced. But so many bands are successfil with this tech I'm sure it's just a matter of learning it.

[scottcald]

The bonus of whichever platform you're using (Fractal, Helix, Headrush, Boss, Kemper) is many have created and shared some presets you can find a starting point to save time in the programming initially.  It'll also help you see how to get where you want to go with these things, ultimately saving time in the future.  

[diablo175]

It's rather timely, this post, as I've been considering moving to a modeling set up once the cover band goes belly up. No need for the sonic or physical heft,  nor the stage foot print of a Marshall 50 watt head on a 1960 cab in the new venture. Fact is, that original prog-ish material we do in the new project has need of a much more expansive and diverse palette of sounds and I can't get there easily with my old reliable ME50 and a wah going thru the aforementioned rig.

I'll be keenly following this thread in the months to come.

[Dutchman]

I did Something similar in the 90’s with a Peavey Profex. Key’s Guitar Duo w everything midi. OnCE programmed it was slick. Hit one button and it changed everything to the settings the song was programmed for. I grew tired of playing scripted everynight w no variation other than what beverage I was consuming. I also missed the sound of an amp singing behind me. YMMV

[Hamer95USA]

 

I own & use a Fractal Audio FX-8 floor effects processor onstage myself. The learning curve plus the 90+ page manual requires reading the manual to learn how to use all of its features. The FX-8 doesn't have any amp modeling and I love the way that it sounds when used in 4 cable method with a clean amp or a multi-channel, high gain amp with an effects loop. I found the FX-8 to have some great sounds that will need tweaking for my own needs. The effects are clear sounding, no crackly wah or squeaky wah pedals, minimal patch cables, and one AC plug to the power strip. The UI beomes more comfortable to use once you learn how to navigate through the menu and what to look for. Using an aftermarket expression controller helps take advantage of using the effects or amp modeling to its full potential. I also mounted my FX-8/2 Roland FV-100 expression controllers/VHT Valvulator I tube buffer/power supply to a Pedaltrain Pro pedal board so it doesn't banged up/avoid loose patch cables coming off/have pedal board organized & ready to use at a moments notice. The amp modeling thing isn't for me, but you'll have your sounds up & running as long as you put some time & effort into dialing the amp modeling/effects into your P.A. mixer. You'll find the AX-8 to be a powerful set of tools in your arsenal.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Guitar George

[bigolsparky]

I have used the Helix for about 2 years now.  I am much more familiar with Line 6 controls and prefer being able to tweak on the box itself.  That is what lead me to the Helix over the AX8.  As far as the sound, I can plug in to just about any decent system and get the sounds I get at home.  I have even considered getting rid of my tube gear as it sits and collect dust.  I never got in to collecting amps so that would be a very limited effort.

 

[polara]

6 minutes ago, bigolsparky said:

I have used the Helix for about 2 years now.  I am much more familiar with Line 6 controls and prefer being able to tweak on the box itself.  That is what lead me to the Helix over the AX8.  As far as the sound, I can plug in to just about any decent system and get the sounds I get at home.  I have even considered getting rid of my tube gear as it sits and collect dust.  I never got in to collecting amps so that would be a very limited effort.

 

Yeah, the Helix interface looks really good. This came down to just keeping en eye out on CL for a Helix, a Fractal, or even a Boss GT-1000 for a good price. I'm sure they all make great sounds and it's just getting comfortable with what you have. I was originally hell-bent on Helix, but this was new in the box for $900. After just a day I feel okay with making adjustments on the fly with the Fractal, even though Line 6 is WAY more visual and intuitive from what I saw.

[tbonesullivan]

My first "modeler" was a good ol' Zoom 505 II.  Even then, the most annoying aspect was programming the thing, and that will probably continue to be true. It's especially frustrating for people who like to tweak their sound / volume on the fly. Like, maybe you use a different guitar. Well, unless you have Billy Gibbons' super fancy guitar equalizer that makes all his guitars sound the same, you'll have to mess with the settings.

I always found the Boss multi-effects pedals, which were like a bunch of pedals stuck together, to be easier to work with.  However, you lose a lot of the tweakability in that format.

Right now I'm still looking for a stompbox modeller... probably the Zoom one, with the cool LCD screens. I wish the Line 6 M6 had more than one screen. I don't really want anything but basic effects, as like most, I have found that many of these units really fall flat with their overdrive sounds. The only modeller that I really like with regards to overdrive is the Boss COSM modelling.

[bigolsparky]

17 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

The only modeller that I really like with regards to overdrive is the Boss COSM modelling.

Until the Helix that was true of Line 6.  The dirt is much better now.  I am using the "Minotaur"/ "Klon" on almost every patch I create.  The HX FX is $599.00.  A little pricey for me since you can get the LT used for around $800.00.

[scottcald]

Line 6 just released the HX stomp - the size of 2 pedals, 3 buttons, balanced outs, 6 blocks of Helix processing and $599.  I'll probably get one just to have a simple backup device or to use in tight spaces.  

https://line6.com/hx-stomp/

[jim777]

I have an AX8, and it is a PITA to program from scratch on the unit, but it is far simpler if you can just hookup a laptop to it and use the AX-Edit program. Not sure if you've tried that. And look for the preset called "EJ Clean" I mean, it is f'ing glorious  If you know the song "Trail of Tears", it IS that song.

[scottcald]

41 minutes ago, jim777 said:

If you know the song "Trail of Tears", it IS that song.

That is a glorious tone. 

[diablo175]

49 minutes ago, jim777 said:

I have an AX8, and it is a PITA to program from scratch on the unit, but it is far simpler if you can just hookup a laptop to it and use the AX-Edit program. Not sure if you've tried that. And look for the preset called "EJ Clean" I mean, it is f'ing glorious  If you know the song "Trail of Tears", it IS that song.

Would that be Testament's version?

 

 

[Hamer95USA]

6 hours ago, jim777 said:

I have an AX8, and it is a PITA to program from scratch on the unit, but it is far simpler if you can just hookup a laptop to it and use the AX-Edit program. Not sure if you've tried that. And look for the preset called "EJ Clean" I mean, it is f'ing glorious  If you know the song "Trail of Tears", it IS that song.

The FX8-Edit editing software program for the FX-8 was a big help in getting my presets up and running. I picked a few that I liked made presets out of them and eventually tweaked those presets until I got them to sound the way that I wanted. I sit in my practice room with a laptop computer, a USB cable, and the FX-8, tweaking the presets to my liking, and making sure it sounds right with my amp. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Guitar George

[polara]

16 hours ago, jim777 said:

I have an AX8, and it is a PITA to program from scratch on the unit, but it is far simpler if you can just hookup a laptop to it and use the AX-Edit program. Not sure if you've tried that. And look for the preset called "EJ Clean" I mean, it is f'ing glorious  If you know the song "Trail of Tears", it IS that song.

Yup, I'm using the software, but then at rehearsal I'm using the interface on the box itself when something doesn't work.

After two rehearsals, here's where I am:

• Cleans are still good
• Delays take a while to dial in, but are good
• Tremolo is good
• I cannot find or tweak a single usable OD, distortion or fuzz pedal. You know the clichés about modeling? I'm learning them and repeating them by heart. Like I said, the cleans are good but the pedal models for dirt are not working at all for me:
  • Fizzy, but if I start cutting the highs, it's suddenly boxy
  • There's a lot of power in the mids, but it's not curing the boxiness
  • Not touch-responsive. Dig in harder and it's like digging into a block of lucite. Just "blah"
  • Sounds like a compressed recording of a guitar track

I finally just plugged into the tube amp and my little pedalboard and found all the sounds I wanted, and could just move a knob to adjust on the fly. (sigh) I know modeling is the future and practical and portable. Why does it sound like ass? Giving it one more week...

I'm gonna start over 100% from scratch with the factory presets. I think I'll need to get all my distortion by changing amp settings (like have a clean JCM800 and a cranked one in the same preset bank) instead of trying their Muff or Lovepedal or TS or RAT models. I think I can do that with shunts, assigning a different amp setting for different scenes in a preset, but I haven't figured it out yet. As I said, Failure uses this stuff live and on records, and Ken Andrews is a fantastically talented producer. However, their sounds are all heavily-effected: either modulated and delayed cleans or raging wall-of-Bogners. I'm beginning to have doubts about doing any other kinds of sounds with a modeler: when I tried a Line 6 and a Fender Mustang, I also got fizzy, boxy, bland sounds unless it was pristine clean or scooped metal.

[bigolsparky]

17 minutes ago, polara said:

Fizzy

When I first got my my Helix I was absolutely sick because of the fizzy tones that came out of it.

IRs and mic changes were my cure for the fizzy and I am sure the AX8 is the same.  With the Helix, all stock cabs seem fizzy and can be tamed with mic changes.  Tonehammer and Allure IRs are also great for replacing stock cabs.  I also purchased acoustic IRs for my Duotone.  They are a game changer.

Another thing to consider is the speakers you use to set up.  I currently use an EV ZLX15.  It seems to be a very middle of the road full range speaker and I get good results plugging into just about any PA.

 

[jim777]

I run an MXR Badass Modified OD into the AX8, as I also didn't care for their distortions. I think the real Fractal devotees are probably using the modeled amps preamp sections and adding their gain that way (as you note) rather that through a pedal emulation, but I'm fine with the MXR. I have to imagine (I haven't tried it) that its tougher to turn down down the gain on a rectifier model than to simply turn off the distortion but I don't know. I actually think a lot about moving it on and getting a nice Tele or maybe one of those Albert Lee SSS guitars instead. If you're not playing out it's ridiculous overkill. I don't have hours to sit and mess with my gear, so I really like to spend the time I have to play actually playing. I thought the fractal would give me the world, but at the end of the day the world comes with the world's problems.

[polara]

46 minutes ago, jim777 said:

I run an MXR Badass Modified OD into the AX8, as I also didn't care for their distortions. I think the real Fractal devotees are probably using the modeled amps preamp sections and adding their gain that way (as you note) rather that through a pedal emulation, but I'm fine with the MXR. I have to imagine (I haven't tried it) that its tougher to turn down down the gain on a rectifier model than to simply turn off the distortion but I don't know. I actually think a lot about moving it on and getting a nice Tele or maybe one of those Albert Lee SSS guitars instead. If you're not playing out it's ridiculous overkill. I don't have hours to sit and mess with my gear, so I really like to spend the time I have to play actually playing. I thought the fractal would give me the world, but at the end of the day the world comes with the world's problems.

I read through some forums, and one guy apparently has a patch that has the bottom four buttons as clean / crunch / gain / boost+delay (whick will bosst and delay any of the first three), and the top four just turn other individual effects on an off.

Dang. The amount of effort it would take me to figure that out is mind-blowing, so since all the Fractal forum guys say "You have to check this patch out" I'll just load it and see it works for me as a default.

Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.

[svl]

Been a Fractal user for almost 10 years now, own both the II and AX8 right now.  Stick to it, don't get discouraged, this unit will do everything you want it to, just takes some effort which is beyond worth it.

Here's a video/audio I made with the II way back in '14, covers pretty much every piece of sonic ground you could want (including acoustic and synth simulation).  All done with one guitar ('til the very end when I switched to a Strat for acoustic sim), one take, just stepping up preset to preset.  The tones and FX are even better now

Guitarslinger sample vid

Extreme example of no fizz but killer OD tone at 27:00 for the VH segment.

Best advice I can give you- chose your IRs carefully and work the Scenes (you can damn near program a whole set into one preset if ya like).  

[polara]

4 minutes ago, svl said:

Been a Fractal user for almost 10 years now, own both the II and AX8 right now.  Stick to it, don't get discouraged, this unit will do everything you want it to, just takes some effort which is beyond worth it.

Here's a video/audio I made with the II way back in '14, covers pretty much every piece of sonic ground you could want (including acoustic and synth simulation).  All done with one guitar ('til the very end when I switched to a Strat for acoustic sim), one take, just stepping up preset to preset.  The tones and FX are even better now

Guitarslinger sample vid

Extreme example of no fizz but killer OD tone at 27:00 for the VH segment.

Best advice I can give you- chose your IRs carefully and work the Scenes (you can damn near program a whole set into one preset if ya like).  

THANK YOU! I think I can cover all our current stuff with one preset if I plan it carefully around just four scenes and three more individual effects. It pains me that I keep hearing things about how you need to move a block here, not there, and do various tricks to get it right, though. I know it's apples to bananas, but I can plug an OCD and a Carbon Copy into a good amp and get a usable sound in about 30 seconds!