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This is sick —played equivalent Epis and Gibbies side by side and...


zorrow

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...I prefer the Epis!

Did it just for fun, with the SG, V and LesPaul models —no Epi Explorers in the store, sorry.

The Epis all have beefier necks and, overall, feel better. No wonder why Gibson is doing so bad! They don’t win even against their own lower-cost brand! 🙄

PS: I include pics of the Amos V, which I did like, just to demonstrate I did go to the guitar shop at least.

52EC70C2-CB4E-4D03-8C5A-1421C92D0975.jpeg

490642F2-CDA0-4848-868C-8B7391B6ECAF.jpeg

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Not the 1st time I've heard that lately. And not just Epiphones! Several import brands seem to be doing good things right now.

Hopefully we will be seeing changes in Gibson products along with the changes they've made up top.

I mean, am I the only guy that won't even try another slim-taper neck"?

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38 minutes ago, crunchee said:

Cool...the Epiphones were all set-necks, right?

Right

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4 hours ago, Hbom said:

I mean, am I the only guy that won't even try another slim-taper neck"?

After buying an R8, I can’t even pretend to like the slim necks. I’m glad I got the R8 before specin’ the neck on Shishkov 0059! 🤓

 

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I had the same experience lately. Hanging on the store wall - 2 Gibson Sj-200 and the Epiphone Sj 200 with cutaway . I know the Gibson SJ -200´s , but have been curious about the Epiphone verson .  Unpluged - I thought the Epiphone sounded smoother and better ! The Gibson´s cost 10 times more.  I wasn't looking to buy , I already have a few expensive  Gibson acoustics..

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I don't post here often but this is an issue which I've actually learned a lot about in the past year or so. 

If you think about it, when these US companies are subcontracting the production of their US guitars, they are basically handing over their blueprints to the sub-contractor. Sure, they can withhold some trade secrets but they are at least trying to visually imply that it's the same guitar (Les Paul, SG, Strat, etc). Many of these overseas companies have often already made their mark by forging copies of famous models and selling domestically, so they aren't starting from scratch! And with modern construction techniques - well, it doesn't take long for Asia to learn how to use a CNC machine. 

The one edge that a company like Gibson might have is in using cheaper hardware and electronics on their imports, but the foreign builders are conquering that problem as well. Gibson can't exactly tell them to keep using bad hardware, it just makes the product inferior when compared to other import lines like PRS' SE series. 

We are pretty much in a space right now where China is sitting about where Ibanez did in 1976. Close enough in quality to convince some buyers to forego the US model. 

Personally, if there is a guitar I really, really want to own and play.....let's say, a US Les Paul Standard, then there's no way I'm going to go for the Epiphone. I would just shop until I found a nice Standard that meets my expectations (and that might be a 15 year old Standard, the way things are going in terms of wood and craftsmanship with current Gibson). 

On the other hand, if there is a guitar that I just thought would be fun to play, or look good hanging on the wall, or setup as an emergency backup - let's say, a 3-pickup SG Custom - then, with current import quality, if I can snag that at $500-600, then I'm sure not gonna pay $3k for one. 

I have a friend who used to run a small US guitar company, and he did source an import line to basically help fund the US side of his custom builds. He was stunned not only by the quality of what came in, but the price points that were offered by the import manufacturers. If you go look on Ebay at the forged Gibsons (or "Chibsons") for sale, and the low, low price they will sell them for - just keep in mind that Gibson is getting a better price than that by contracting in bulk for the same guitar - just a slightly altered headstock and different logo! So retail is easily triple what they are paying to build and ship the guitars. My buddy did point out that he would have to invest time into setups, nut corrections, or fret leveling to get the imports to his expectation, but small price to pay when there is a lot of room for markup.  I don't get the sense Gibson spends any time on correcting any build flaws on Epiphones. And with the improved craftmanship on these instruments, they almost don't need to worry about it.

I have heard PRS does some QC work on SE's after they ship to the US but before they get to the shop. 

The forgery companies certainly have no ethics, I won't defend them - but they seem to be a lot more interested in delivering custom builds, with a la carte options, which is something that US companies won't consider without asking astronomical prices. 

We live in interesting times. 

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1 hour ago, lockjawnight said:

I don't post here often but this is an issue which I've actually learned a lot about in the past year or so. 

If you think about it, when these US companies are subcontracting the production of their US guitars, they are basically handing over their blueprints to the sub-contractor. Sure, they can withhold some trade secrets but they are at least trying to visually imply that it's the same guitar (Les Paul, SG, Strat, etc). Many of these overseas companies have often already made their mark by forging copies of famous models and selling domestically, so they aren't starting from scratch! And with modern construction techniques - well, it doesn't take long for Asia to learn how to use a CNC machine. 

The one edge that a company like Gibson might have is in using cheaper hardware and electronics on their imports, but the foreign builders are conquering that problem as well. Gibson can't exactly tell them to keep using bad hardware, it just makes the product inferior when compared to other import lines like PRS' SE series. 

We are pretty much in a space right now where China is sitting about where Ibanez did in 1976. Close enough in quality to convince some buyers to forego the US model. 

Personally, if there is a guitar I really, really want to own and play.....let's say, a US Les Paul Standard, then there's no way I'm going to go for the Epiphone. I would just shop until I found a nice Standard that meets my expectations (and that might be a 15 year old Standard, the way things are going in terms of wood and craftsmanship with current Gibson). 

On the other hand, if there is a guitar that I just thought would be fun to play, or look good hanging on the wall, or setup as an emergency backup - let's say, a 3-pickup SG Custom - then, with current import quality, if I can snag that at $500-600, then I'm sure not gonna pay $3k for one. 

I have a friend who used to run a small US guitar company, and he did source an import line to basically help fund the US side of his custom builds. He was stunned not only by the quality of what came in, but the price points that were offered by the import manufacturers. If you go look on Ebay at the forged Gibsons (or "Chibsons") for sale, and the low, low price they will sell them for - just keep in mind that Gibson is getting a better price than that by contracting in bulk for the same guitar - just a slightly altered headstock and different logo! So retail is easily triple what they are paying to build and ship the guitars. My buddy did point out that he would have to invest time into setups, nut corrections, or fret leveling to get the imports to his expectation, but small price to pay when there is a lot of room for markup.  I don't get the sense Gibson spends any time on correcting any build flaws on Epiphones. And with the improved craftmanship on these instruments, they almost don't need to worry about it.

I have heard PRS does some QC work on SE's after they ship to the US but before they get to the shop. 

The forgery companies certainly have no ethics, I won't defend them - but they seem to be a lot more interested in delivering custom builds, with a la carte options, which is something that US companies won't consider without asking astronomical prices. 

We live in interesting times. 

If a Chinese worker can live a nice middle class lifestyle on $10,000 a year, of course they can undercut the US makers on price.   When I was in China in 1994 the average 1 BR rent in Shanghai was $40 per month. 

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27 minutes ago, Studio Custom said:

If a Chinese worker can live a nice middle class lifestyle on $10,000 a year, of course they can undercut the US makers on price.   When I was in China in 1994 the average 1 BR rent in Shanghai was $40 per month. 

Yeah, the economics of this are mind-boggling, and technology (CNCs, etc) has made an unfair fight even less fair. The use of premium woods was a HUGE advantage for US companies like Gibson, and with the scarcity of our favorite tonewoods becoming an issue, they are losing ground in that area as well. 

If anything, just as we saw from the OP, you can't fool yourself into saying "I like this aged mahogany, maple cap, braz or indian rosewood board, and I know it sounds better than that crappy import." Now, you really do compare instruments with your EARS since many of our favorite wood types aren't present - it's simply, "do I like the way this sounds or the way that one sounds". 

One big big factor that I neglected to mention is brand loyalty. Loving and appreciating a guitar brand, pride in ownership of said brand, to where you never would consider an import copy.  I think Hamer is a good example of a company that really put serious effort into their craftsmanship and also maintained a good relationship with its customers. Gibson has made tons of missteps with their buying public and there's a lot of resentment there.....which harms the pride/loyalty thing considerably. 

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2 minutes ago, lockjawnight said:

One big big factor that I neglected to mention is brand loyalty. Loving and appreciating a guitar brand, pride in ownership of said brand, to where you never would consider an import copy.  I think Hamer is a good example of a company that really put serious effort into their craftsmanship and also maintained a good relationship with its customers. Gibson has made tons of missteps with their buying public and there's a lot of resentment there.....which harms the pride/loyalty thing considerably. 

Yet Gibson still stands, and Hamer doesn't, ironic? 

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12 minutes ago, Studio Custom said:

Yet Gibson still stands, and Hamer doesn't, ironic? 

Out spend your superior competitor for retail floor space...….then buy out the superior competitor to eliminate them! Rather than put all that money and energy into creating a better product, or more bang for the buck. 

And without serious competition, no incentives......

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a couple of years ago I accompanied a friend to GC when he was on the hunt for a new Epiphone SG; he wanted an SG but his budget couldn't justify a Gibson. He played through several Epiphones and settled on one of the ones with the coil-tap (I don't recall that ever being a desired feature, but ah ok).  I played his choice, but also tried a used black Epi SG that has a chunky neck and played well for half the price ($199).  Played great sounded good even with the stock pickups, so I grabbed it figuring I could always upgrade the pickups and electronics if I needed to.  For as much as I 'need' an SG it's more than good enough.

Guitars are all one-offs in terms of the wood, components, fit and finish.  I've played great cheap guitars and lousy expensive guitars - I think higher end generally buys you a higher likelihood of a 'better' instrument but it's still a bit of a crapshoot imho due to other variables (especially when 'better' is subjective by what you want/like/can deal with in a guitar). It's like shoes; some fit you right and some just don't work for you (but Butcher always has the coolest ones of all lol).

 

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I've tried multiple times over the years to like some Epiphones. I just don't. For a variety of reasons.

However, Berryman did a really good job with them, and the products features, and specs very often have a lot of things that I would love to see in Gibson's. That dude owned more of the company than Henry did, but let Henry be 'the guy'. Very odd, and an unfortunate result. No one was clamoring for Epiphones with goofily shaped necks, zero-frets, robot tuners etc. They never learned.

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Prs se.   Cheap price. Great guitar to have on a stand and not worry when the dog comes barreling through and knocks it over.  Indonesian made guitar.  At least three different pieces of wood glued to make the body.  Plastic like finish.    But it sounds pretty good.  They made the neck just thick enough.    I may upgrade electronics with what I have lying around.  May not.   Doesn't need it.  Sinking any $$ in it wouldn't seem right.   

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30 minutes ago, MCChris said:

Look at that proud Epiphone player:

EE1886.jpg

Wow!!!

His face looks like he regrets any type of deal he made or is going to make with Epiphone.

He does not look like a happy camper at all.

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2 hours ago, Texsunburst59 said:

He does not look like a happy camper at all.

No one is a happy camper when they're playing an Epiphone that's a direct knockoff of the Gibson they really wanted but were too cheap/broke/impatient to buy it.

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I live in Seattle, home of the Presidents of the United States of America. I used to shop at a music store where PotUSA used to consign equipment when they were done with it. I picked up a pair of Chris Bellew's Artist Stock Epiphones and they were pretty impressive in build quality, finish, playability, etc. One was an LP Special--no binding, simple sunburst, but great tone and the setup was so good it felt like it played itself. The other was a red Epi Casino with chrome-covered dog ear P90s. Also great playability and tone. I did replace the Samsung P90s with Lindy Fralins, however.

 

And when my Newport with Phat Cats arrived, it was Game Over.

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14 hours ago, Texsunburst59 said:

Wow!!!

His face looks like he regrets any type of deal he made or is going to make with Epiphone.

He does not look like a happy camper at all.

That sad old bastard looks unhappy no matter what he’s holding. 

 

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“If if I hold it for one photo, now it’s worth so much more”

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13 hours ago, Ua D said:

That sad old bastard looks unhappy no matter what he’s holding. 

The memory of the Epiphone is still fresh in his mind.

2 hours ago, hamerhead said:

I have been less disappointed by new Epiphones than new Gibsons.

It's impossible to *not* be disappointed by an Epiphone.

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