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crunchee

Peter Green's Marshall 4x10 Combo Amp In Premier Guitar...And A Question

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Saw this today on my Premier Guitar feed:

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/29813-Peter-Green-s-1964-Marshall-JTM45?utm_source=Premier+Guitar&utm_campaign=0d43291381-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_01_31_06_27&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_93db14e670-0d43291381-66048837&goal=0_93db14e670-0d43291381-66048837&mc_cid=0d43291381&mc_eid=e9838febc6

The thing that got me wondering about this amp is the 1964 date (that's not a Marshall model number BTW, the actual model number for this amp is Model 1961), since the amp has a script Marshall logo...by looking through my copy of the Doyle Marshall book, the earliest date I can find for the use of a script Marshall logo is late 1965  (on p. 20, it's under the JTM45 heads section, but I can't find a earlier reference for the intro date of that logo in the book).  The indicator light on the control panel was also changed from a round amber one to a square red one at about the same time, again as mentioned on p. 20 of the Doyle Marshall book....the photo in the article, showing the control panel at an angle, shows a square red indicator light.   And yeah, the speakers have a earlier-style Marshall logo on their stickers in the article photo, but Marshall could have simply been using up their supply of speaker stickers.  At the bottom of the article is the statement: "The amplifier is pretty much entirely original and has not been restored or altered".  I don't see any sign in the top article photo that the logo had been replaced on the front of this amp.  Anybody know better details?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Edited by crunchee
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I tend to think you're right about the date. I've seen the old "art-deco" style font on '65 models for sure. I always thought they transitioned in late '65.

Edited by gtrdaddy
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That was a sweet sound clip they posted!!

 

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I had a 2003 Bluesbreaker that I had modded to mid 60s specs...I was chasing  Beano. Never got there. Dual Red Fangs, KT66s....but it didn’t sound like this Peter Green amp with 10s....you can hear Beano in the clip. That throaty tone that is classic Marshall JTM. My JTM would not  do it. I should have had Lil Dawg build me a JTM head...Jim would have done it right...that is such a great blues rock tone.  I love my Blonde Bassman..,but maybe I should sell it and have a JTM made and try it again...

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Interesting article. Very fuzzy and brigth tone. Not my cupa tea, don't like it at all. This might be like cursing in a church, but I think my 1973 Marshall JTM50 (modded 2040 combo) sounds way better than that soundclip.

The guitarist in my band has a reissue Bluesbreaker. He tried KT66's in it. Did not sound that good. Then he tried 6L6's. Went back to the EL34's, they just have sweetest breakup for that classic Marshall tone.

I remember in the 80's and 90's when I read articles about "the great 60s Bluesbreaker tone". Then everytime I heard that Clapton tone, and Yardbirds etc, I thought "ouch, that is not great guitar tones. Just bright, pretty ugly break up and fuzzy. Each to his own. I love the Yardbirds, don't get me wrong, I just don't think the guitartones were that great.

 

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Interesting discussion here. For me, the Marshall tone I crave is the JMP tone of the late 60s into the 70s...and that is el34s through a different circuit than a JTM. AFAIK, the Yardbirds guitarists never used Bluesbreaker amps while in that band. I do love the Beano tone and Peter Green & Mick Taylor’s use of that same JTM circuit with Mayall, but that was part of my issue with my BB...I realized I am into the JMP tone far more than the JTM..,at least for playing RNR. For blues, the JTM is sweet but mine didn’t have that throaty growl. I wish it did. As far as the clip sounding bright a simple twist of the Presence and treble controls will take care of that. Mine was only bright when clean. It darkened considerably as the gain went up. Another thing I didn’t like.

I didn’t find the JTM circuit to crunch anything like the JMP that followed. In fact, the JTM had the prettiest cleans of any amp I ever played...my Blonde Bassman possibly excepted. Too close to call.

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1 hour ago, Jakeboy said:

I realized I am into the JMP tone far more than the JTM..,at least for playing RNR.

I certainly agree with that sentiment. And I suspect a large number of rock-oriented (as opposed to straight blues) Marshall aficionados would concur, as well.

 

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3 hours ago, Disturber said:

I remember in the 80's and 90's when I read articles about "the great 60s Bluesbreaker tone". Then everytime I heard that Clapton tone, and Yardbirds etc, I thought "ouch, that is not great guitar tones. Just bright, pretty ugly break up and fuzzy. 

Weren't they recording and playing live through AC30s at that time?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Biz Prof said:

Weren't they recording and playing live through AC30s at that time?

 

 

Maybe. I might be wrong here. Sorry.

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This is the problem that Mesa Boogie ran into when making their Stiletto Amps. Their "crunch" channel was much closer to the JTM sound, and many were just not a fan. The "Fat Clean" mode, with the gain dimed, gives much more of what late 70's marshall fans crave.

Early Marshall's were bright, and yes, I also agree that I am not really a fan of a lot of the tones from Clapton and others in the early days that people spent thousands of dollars trying to recreate. Yes, even the WOMAN TONE.

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I had a 1st gen Stiletto for a few years. It was ok, but not any better than a hotrodded Marshall. The, “solo”, button was a handy feature, however. 

Edited by RobB
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This video is a low-fidelity demo of Steve Clark's jcm 800 head that he used when touring in the early 1980s. Granted, it was modified to give more gain, but it imparts that emphasized mid-range and boinginess evident in Marshalls built during the JMP era.

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On 2/3/2020 at 4:25 PM, RobB said:

I had a 1st gen Stiletto for a few years. It was ok, but not any better than a hotrodded Marshall. The, “solo”, button was a handy feature, however. 

What I like about my Stiletto is that it has two really nice clean modes, in addition to the crunch and high gain modes. Solo function is also really nice.

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The JTM thickens and compresses when cranked...it is not bright then...which is why Clapton dimed treble and presence...and he dimed the bass too, according to his autobiography....but he never replicated that tone again, in his words.

It must be the OT...I can clearly hear Beano in the clip above, yet the amp is not wound up like Clapton had his cranked on that album.

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Honestly...it sounds like it needs a cap job.

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36 minutes ago, JGale said:

Honestly...it sounds like it needs a cap job.

Yeah... I was really NOT feeling it honestly. If it's ALL ORIGINAL it probably is love overdue.

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Wow...you can HEAR when an amp needs a cap job? That is impressive indeed...and I am not being a smart ass or joker...

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2 hours ago, Jakeboy said:

Wow...you can HEAR when an amp needs a cap job? That is impressive indeed...and I am not being a smart ass or joker...

I remember years ago someone at the Carvin forum, got this really nice bolt, bridge humbucker, looked great. But he came back saying "it's always harsh/shrill sounding with my amplifier" when compared to a Les Paul.  Well he took it to a friends house, and it sounded great.   People suggested taking his amp in to have it looked at, and the tech said "yeah these caps are shot". After replacement, he loved it. Much fuller sounding.

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3 hours ago, Jakeboy said:

Wow...you can HEAR when an amp needs a cap job? That is impressive indeed...and I am not being a smart ass or joker...

I can in person. And the feel/response is not lively as well. I can tell mostly when  I know the amp. I know BF and SF Fenders pretty well. 

Edited by gtrdaddy

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If I am in a room with an amp I know well, like a tweed Fender 5e3 or 5f1,  I can hear when there is a component issue somewhere...be it tubes, an OT going, or caps...but I don’t know which until I start troubleshooting. But on a recording? I cannot tell. Maybe the engineer removed treble and added bass. Or the tubes are worn...? I do know that Jim at Lil Dawg can  tell when it is caps, tubes, or a xfrmr going when he has the amp in front of him. He knows his amps.... I ain’t that good.

Regardless, what I can hear in that clip is the essence of Beano, even if it isn’t cranked. And I don’t hear that in modern JTMs.....yet the Beano amp was brand new, so it isn’t an age thing. Very curious and interesting.

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30 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

...yet the Beano amp was brand new, so it isn’t an age thing. Very curious and interesting

The Beano amp may have been new... but... it was using new tubes from an era noted for great tubes! The tubes installed in most new amps now are far less pleasing to my ears! They just don’t have the harmonic saturation tubes from long ago have! I’ve tried every name brand of new tubes and they can’t cut the mustard compare to an old Mullard, Amperex, Seimans, RCA, GE... etc...in any all tube amp I’ve owned or built! That IMHO makes the difference!!

When I’m gone somebody’s gonna score on a old TV repair tube box chuck full of ANOS and NOS guitar amp tubes!!!

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2 hours ago, Dutchman said:

The Beano amp may have been new... but... it was using new tubes from an era noted for great tubes! The tubes installed in most new amps now are far less pleasing to my ears! They just don’t have the harmonic saturation tubes from long ago have! I’ve tried every name brand of new tubes and they can’t cut the mustard compare to an old Mullard, Amperex, Seimans, RCA, GE... etc...in any all tube amp I’ve owned or built! That IMHO makes the difference!!

When I’m gone somebody’s gonna score on a old TV repair tube box chuck full of ANOS and NOS guitar amp tubes!!!

I concur. All my amps use old glass and sound better for it...,the only exception was my  JTM. I was chasing Beano so I went with current production Gold Lion KT66s cause Marconi or other NOS KT66s were so expensive....I should have sprung for them. It may have made the difference. I know the 50s Tung Sol 5881s in my blonde Bassman destroy anything else tone wise, even 6l6wgbs by Sylvania....something magical about those Tung Sols. Maybe it is the same with the old KT 66s....

Edited by Jakeboy
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41 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

I concur. All my amps use old glass and sound better for it...,the only exception was my  JTM. I was chasing Beano so I went with current production Gold Lion KT66s cause Marconi or other NOS KT66s were so expensive....I should have sprung for them. It may have made the difference. I know the 50s Tung Sol 5881s in my blonde Bassman destroy anything else tone wise, even 6l6wgbs by Sylvania....something magical about those Tung Sols. Maybe it is the same with the old KT 66s....

I’ve been running 6l6GC RCA Black plates in my Bassman and fiddle with the preamp tubes. Commander 5751’s sound great and it stay’s cleaner, RCA 12Ax’s still get my mojo going tho!! Mines an original 865 circuit with a AA 165 tube sticker. Love it!! But my 5E3 get more love due to stage volume issues...

KT 66’s are all alone in their internal make up and tone... and damn hard to find good NOS Matched sets! 

Edited by Dutchman
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I concur...,NOS matched sets of KT66s are hard to find and expensive.

My Lil Dawg 6g6b blonde Bassman clone runs 50s Tung Sol 5881s and they sound so very sweet. Great matched set that Impicked up on eBay years ago for almost nothing cause the guide pins were snapped off. 
I also agree on the old RCA ax7s sounding wonderful. I have them in my Bassman as well.

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Nope. I listened to it again. Maybe my bad, but I have always associated fizzy and indistinct sound as an amp in need of a cap job.

Whatever this is they recorded, it sounds like it needs a cap job.

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