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LucSulla

Warning About Guitar Purchases Online

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I made a new thread because, judging from responses in my old thread, y'all need to know this. 

I just called PayPal and found out that the case would have gone the sellers way and I would have had to appeal even though they sent the guitar to the wrong address.  

Under PayPal's rules, the shipment only has to go to the right city and zip code to satisfy PayPal's terms - but not your specific address!  Had I not called, and had PayPal not then followed up and called UPS to confirm the address on the package was not mine, I would have lost the claim and probably the appeal.  UPS would not share the correct address, but they did confirm it was not mine.  

The person I talked to at PayPal couldn't have been helpful and straightforward.  She's also the reason I wanted to post this. 

According to her, there has been an increase lately in fraudulent sellers gaming PayPals rules with delivery.  She said somehow they are able to generate tracking that satisfies PayPal's conditions, and though this seller did not require a signature.  She said more than likely there never was a guitar shipped at all, that it was all just scam BS from the get go.  Looking back at what details I can see now that I am checking, the package weighed .30 lbs. 

🙄

That was one red flag that actually helps me.  She assured me that even if the claim has to be appealed that I will ultimately get my money back and that, since she was able to confirm, the appeal should be all automatic if it even happens.  

Her comment was to vet sellers, which brings me to Reverb.  

I explained that between the guarantees through Reverb and PayPal, that there is a false sense of security.   If you are shopping on Reverb and want their protection, you have to pay with a CC or DC.  If you pay with PayPal, they don't do jack shit for you.  Judging from my own sales there, most people still use PayPal and are probably not aware that Reverb isn't going to do shit except in so many words say that's PayPal's problem, good luck getting your money, and thanks for using Reverb.  

Long story short, even if you are using PayPal through eBay or Reverb, only buy from sellers with an extensive history.   You aren't as protected as you think you are.  And I wouldn't buy a guitar off a forum knowing all of this now unless I knew the seller pretty damn well.  

 

Edited by LucSulla
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Wow. The bastards are crafty... I HATE damn thieves. Glad it worked out for you.

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That is very educational because nearly every guitar I buy I use paypal!! Money comes outa my checking account. A while back I bought an amp and it never arrived, contacted Reverb and had my money back in my checking account in a couple day’s! It appears that the new owners may have changed their their buyer protection policy??? 
I wonder if you can load your Reverb account from Paypal and then be protected??? 

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18 minutes ago, DaveH said:

Wow. The bastards are crafty... I HATE damn thieves. Glad it worked out for you.

We'll see.  Not out of the woods yet.  I don't like the bit about possibly losing the initial review but probably winning the appeal.  

PayPal has to give 10 days for a response from the seller apparently due to a law, not policy.

 

15 minutes ago, Dutchman said:

That is very educational because nearly every guitar I buy I use paypal!! Money comes outa my checking account. A while back I bought an amp and it never arrived, contacted Reverb and had my money back in my checking account in a couple day’s! It appears that the new owners may have changed their their buyer protection policy??? 
I wonder if you can load your Reverb account from Paypal and then be protected??? 

I don't know if that changed after Etsy bought them either.  But I'll tell everyone this much - fuck Reverb and their 48 hours for this and that.  The moment it sounds fishy, if you went through PayPal, start the claims process.  Reverb isn't going to do shit for you anyway unless you used Reverb Payments. 

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Yet another reason to BUY FROM BUBS! ;) He's legit! The only way you package won't get to you, is if I misspell your name and address. What are the chances of that? :ph34r:

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9 minutes ago, bubs_42 said:

Yet another reason to BUY FROM BUBS! ;) He's legit! The only way youR package won't get to you, is if I misspell your name and address. What are the chances of that? :ph34r:

Quite high, I'd guess...

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Just now, killerteddybear said:

Quite high, I'd guess...

Just proves my point. LOL 

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Good info.     Scary.    

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27 minutes ago, bubs_42 said:

Yet another reason to BUY FROM BUBS! ;) He's legit! The only way you package won't get to you, is if I misspell your name and address. What are the chances of that? :ph34r:

Plus, Bubs' never-ending-assortment is guaranteeeeeed to have what you're looking for.  Tomorrow, yesterday, today.

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I guess I can still use PayPal, I just won’t use bank account or PayPal credit. This is so alarming to me that I just called them to confirm. All the lady could tell me is “it depends”. Fuck that, it does not “depend”, the item I purchased via PayPal, to be sent to the address on my account, either arrives at my address or it doesn’t.  I kept pressing the rep for a concrete confirmation, and she told me you can supply several types of documentation to support your claim, such as a letter from the carrier confirming nothing was shipped. WTF???  I’m pretty sure you can easily get confirmation that something WAS shipped, how do you get confirmation that something WASNT shipped?  This is concerning AF. 

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Well that is surprising. What about the whole "paypal verified address" thing? I thought the seller would only be protected if they shipped to that, but now it only has to be the right city? That's a load of crap!!! If paypal is aware of these scams, they should do something about them. Hopefully the account that tried this BS was closed.

In most of my dealings, I will say I am the "seller" because I work for an E-commerce company that sells a ton of crap online. We always and ONLY ship to the paypal verified address.

Edited by tbonesullivan
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2 hours ago, LucSulla said:

I made a new thread because, judging from responses in my old thread, y'all need to know this. 

I just called PayPal and found out that the case would have gone the sellers way and I would have had to appeal even though they sent the guitar to the wrong address.  

Under PayPal's rules, the shipment only has to go to the right city and zip code to satisfy PayPal's terms - but not your specific address!  Had I not called, and had PayPal not then followed up and called UPS to confirm the address on the package was not mine, I would have lost the claim and probably the appeal.  UPS would not share the correct address, but they did confirm it was not mine.  

The person I talked to at PayPal couldn't have been helpful and straightforward.  She's also the reason I wanted to post this. 

According to her, there has been an increase lately in fraudulent sellers gaming PayPals rules with delivery.  She said somehow they are able to generate tracking that satisfies PayPal's conditions, and though this seller did not require a signature.  She said more than likely there never was a guitar shipped at all, that it was all just scam BS from the get go.  Looking back at what details I can see now that I am checking, the package weighed .30 lbs. 

🙄

That was one red flag that actually helps me.  She assured me that even if the claim has to be appealed that I will ultimately get my money back and that, since she was able to confirm, the appeal should be all automatic if it even happens.  

Her comment was to vet sellers, which brings me to Reverb.  

I explained that between the guarantees through Reverb and PayPal, that there is a false sense of security.   If you are shopping on Reverb and want their protection, you have to pay with a CC or DC.  If you pay with PayPal, they don't do jack shit for you.  Judging from my own sales there, most people still use PayPal and are probably not aware that Reverb isn't going to do shit except in so many words say that's PayPal's problem, good luck getting your money, and thanks for using Reverb.  

Long story short, even if you are using PayPal through eBay or Reverb, only buy from sellers with an extensive history.   You aren't as protected as you think you are.  And I wouldn't buy a guitar off a forum knowing all of this now unless I knew the seller pretty damn well.  

 

                                   Thanks for that........................knowledge is power and it is a good thing to know what your REALLY dealing with. I stopped selling on Ebay and only use PayPal for buying small items. I've sold guitars on Craigslist then do a meet and greet at my local mall for cash and carry. Got tired of all the fees and worrying.shipping etc.I never dealt with REVERB or had issues with PAYPAL but I have had friends who have had issues with both.................one guy went through a mess very similar to yours. Sounds like you will be OK and get your $$$ back.Good for you.:)

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40 minutes ago, Studio Custom said:

You pay with your credit card, that way you can always charge back, period.   

                                                          THIS^^^^

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Yeah, this is why I like buying stuff from here. Still have never bought off reverb. 
 

bought several things from @bubs_42 and chances are I will again. Eventually he’ll be unloading something I want...

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This pisses me off. Fuck Reverb for buying guitars. In fact, I have one guitar to sell and then I don’t

plan on buying any more guitars unless I am sending money to Mike Shishkov. 

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10 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

...unless I am sending money to Mike Shishkov. 

or Bubs.

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I figured more than a few of you would be surprised by this based off the "Reverb and PayPal will have your back," comments in the other thread. 

PayPal very well may when all is said and done, but it wasn't nearly as easy as it should have been.  Reverb, however, is full of shit these days.  Buyer protection my ass.  I sell guitars there, and while anecdotal, my experience is that a lot of people still use PayPal.   I'd say 2/3s of my sales there are through PayPal.  Additionally, many sellers only accept PayPal still on Reverb, which by default means that if you buy from a good chunk of sellers on PayPal and something goes wrong, Reverb won't do shit to help you. 

PayPal seems aware that there is an issue with scammers using their policy of only requiring delivery to be to the right zip code, but who knows if they'll fix that. 

7 hours ago, jginsj said:

I’m pretty sure you can easily get confirmation that something WAS shipped, how do you get confirmation that something WASNT shipped?  This is concerning AF. 

They don't even have to do that.  Someone sent something to Oxford, MS, that weighed .3 lbs.  The invoice from Reverb said it was supposed to by a Jackson King V and had my correct address, yet PayPal is waffling over me being the one pulling the scam, despite all of that documentation.  It got delivered to the right zip code, so good enough as far as they are concerned it seems. And UPS won't even tell PayPal what the actual fucking address was.  

Like I say, there is a lot of horseshit going on here, and y'all need to be aware of it.  This whole "buyer protection" thing seems like a lot bullshit to me.   All I have to do is post a guitar for sale on Reverb, collect the money, and then generate a tracking number of anything going to the zip code in which you live.  I can send a fucking post card to anyone in your zip code as long as it has tracking and Reverb, at the very least, will throw you under the bus.  We'll see if PayPal does.  

I was so obviously defrauded here, and Reverb in particular is basically just saying, "Oh, well bless your heart,"

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That really blows Jason. You should change the name of this thread to “BEWARE of REVERB & PAYPAL” 

...and add tags to it.

Edited by gtrdaddy
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10 hours ago, bubs_42 said:

Yet another reason to BUY FROM BUBS! ;) He's legit! The only way you package won't get to you, is if I misspell your name and address. What are the chances of that? :ph34r:

Got any reversed head, boomered Cali's?  😆

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One of the greatest things about this place is sharing info like that. I hope it works out for you.

But maybe WE'RE the problem - the HFC has made it so easy and comfortable to buy stuff here that we let our guard down out in the real world. I mean, how many times have you bought something here and the sellers ships it before you even send the money? Or vice versa, you ship something before getting paid? For me, it's been a bunch. We've got it pretty good.

Maybe the rest of the world will catch on.

 

(.....removes rose-colored glasses.....)

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                                          So much of this providing information,paying,insuring shipping,tracking,obligation of who does what and when, it's a wonder it works at all.I stopped selling any [Or Buying] guitars using Ebay long ago.[I never have used REVERB] Fees got crazy and their policies went sideways.Last guitar I bought I used my Credit Card,It was shipped FedEx "OVERNIGHT SATURDAY DELIVERY" ,shipped Friday morning I got it Saturday at 10:00 AM.Seller provided tracking and insured the package for the full value of the guitar and FedEx sent me update Emails till the doorbell rang and the box was delivered. How it is suppose to work. A friend used Ebay/PayPal  for a auction sale and sent a expensive jacket[Insured for full value with tracking] to a buyer,buyer says where is my jacket?  I never got it. My friend looks at the tracking info and sure enough it showed the jacket was delivered to the address the buyer provided.Trouble was the buyer never updated his "CONFIRMED ADDRESS" with EBAY when he moved. Lucky for him the lady that got his jacket never opened the package as she saw it was not her's and did the right thing and  gave it back to the carrier which In this case was the USPS.Jacket was returned to the seller who shipped it to the buyer's NEW/CORRECT "CONFIRMED" current address. Buyer paid for the reshipping as he admitted it was his fault for the screw up.To many things can go wrong with multiple agencies involved and then your stuck trying to either get what you have paid for or your money refunded. Last 4 guitars I sold or traded all were done locally, cash and carry at a mall using a Craigslist listing...............which CAN  also have it's share of issues.You just have to be careful and sometimes even that isn't enough. I hope you get back  your $$$$$ or the guitar,it's a awful place to be in,and I don't know what your going through...............but I can imagine. Hope it works out. Update us what happens.

Edited by ARM OF HAMER
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Eye opening for sure.  Much thanks for the detailed info.  
I’ve purchased here with great success.  HFC’ers have been great.  They have even gone out of there way to check out guitars for me, then purchase them and ship them.  Friends I most likely will never meet, but great friends in so many ways.  
Sorry for all the shit you are going through, the stress of this BS is not good.  I had a massive stroke mostly from uncontrolled stress.  Please don’t let it get to you.  I know it sucks, but ....

Thank you for the Paypal and Reverb info.   I guess I’ve been lucky with them so far.  
I hope you prevail 

Edited by ptm1diver
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I really have lost faith in Reverb between my issue with the numbnuts buyer who wanted a refund and claimed I sold him a "broken" guitar (the hairline cracks near the neck pocket) Reverb's policies and the myriad stories o' horror from others.

Pisses me off because it's a good resource to reach buyers/sellers but for the dumbf*ckery and shady AF tactics by sellers and buyers and Reverb's policies. 

 

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Reminds me of my asking a seller some questions about his listing on Reverb last week...he had his guitar listed originally for $1400 for a couple of months, then down to $700...after I asked my questions, the price shot up to $1150, then a few days later down to $800, until today where it's at $850.  Guy's name oughta be Marjorie Daw, with all that See-Sawin' going on.  <_<

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