killerteddybear Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 https://reverb.com/item/36040523-hamer-chaparral-1993-red No affiliation. Wasn't alpep running Lost Art Vintage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottcald Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Not sure about the logofest, but I like the dual hum config. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Yes I am still alive....and will run Lost Art Vintage Instruments until they pry it from my cold dead hands. hope everyone is well here. I don't stop by much anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustKid Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Strange, but Hamer logo, and I'm not talking about those on the body, looks wrong in size and position. And I've, actually, never seen USA under serial on any Chaps or Calis, since they pretty much share the same neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Yes it is a hamer it hung in the factory for years jeezous the conspiracy theories remind me why I barely stop here anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Oh sorry.... i read all the conspiracy theorists then tried to compose an answer gotta love the hfc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustKid Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Andrew said: Yes, I pieced all that together. I think I know a large proportion of Hamer USAs are 'freaks'. The response from the vendor could have been: 'After hanging about in two factories for two decades, and in the last few days before Hamer shut down, someone decided to stamp it with a very late, possibly terminal, serial number.' The point I'm making: I don't find it helpful, or in the spirit of the HFC, to imply anyone questioning the aberrant details must be a fucking conspiracy theorist. Absolutely agree. I think the buyer should not piece anything together. It all should be in the description. And, although it's not your sale, thank you gtrdaddy for clarifying how that serial appeared on Chap, I would've never guessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biz Prof Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Trying to tread neutral ground here... The Reverb ad (and the requisite photos) seemed to tell the story for me, even if the provenance wasn't either fully known or explained. The oddities that Andrew mentioned should have registered on any Hamer USA aficionado's radar, frankly. The sum of the parts, however, gave me the impression that it was legit--likely a shop mule/case plug build-up that one of the last New Hartford men standing managed to salvage and slip out the back door. I do agree with Andrew that this was meant to be a memento piece, not a marketed product. Nevertheless, the secondary market cares not. The odd elements that made it puzzling (I won't use suspect, because I've learned to "never say 'never'" when it comes to a Hamer USA one-off) were equally balanced by the instinctual feeling that "only guys working in the shop could have/would have done that." To wit, I seriously doubt a faker would have gone to certain lengths to pass off an import as a USA when it features: One-piece mahogany body (I think, unless that's a glue joint on at the bottom 1/4 of the body) with what appears to be nice grain and double-hum configuration Eleventeen-dozen factory-correct Letraset logos of different styles and sizes A factory-correct Hamer-stamped Schaller Floyd Factory-spec (but not Hamer-logo'd) Schaller tuners Three-piece (not counting the headstock tip) stressed maple neck with the joint lines in the same places you'd expect for any bolt-neck USA Hamer Factory-correct cavity cover dimensions (the covers might actually be plastic--hard to tell in those photos) What appears to be a set of Slammers (easily could have been sitting in a parts box for years) Stamped serial number that begins under the B-string tuner, whose number suggests a wink/nod at the finished product's sequence in Hamer history, and which would require a rather inside-baseball knowledge of Hamer serialization to concoct from whole cloth In summary (and weird dots aside) this, to me, screamed, "case plug" or "shop mule". Perhaps Dave, Mike, Jackass, Curt, or someone else can chime in and share any details that they remember. Mine is merely one dude's analysis. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynic Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 @Andrew is among a small handful of earthlings I'd trust on just about anything Hamer. For him to say he doesn't trust it given the number of oddities seems reasonable. @alpep is a long time trusted seller and dealer. I've not met either of them but given the time they've been around these parts they must be at least 16 years old. As a couple budding teens (at least), I'm sure they can work out any issues without the peanut gallery fanning the flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerteddybear Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 I think @ammscray infected our board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmatthes Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrdaddy Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Wow! OK fellas, I've got some inside info. Let me start by saying I don't believe Al intentionally misleads anyone. However, I can no longer vouch for this particular guitar being legit in good conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 and the mystery continues....... lmfao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrdaddy Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 The serial number is wrong, outside of the range of serial numbers that Hamer produced and logged. It was definitely NOT built by Hamer. Someone went dumpster diving and grabbed the parts to slap it together after the FMIC/Kaman guys were sent to the building to throw everything out and clean the building up. It's even possible and likely that one of the clean up crew took the stuff and did it due to the SN stamp. Obviously whomever did it, didn't know anything about the proper logging of the Hamer SNs and stamped a bogus number on what amounts to a counterfeit guitar. The last Hamer serial number stamped in the shop before Hamer USA was permanently closed in the spring of 2014, was #456449. This of course means the first digit is representative of the year 2014. The following five digits mean that this last guitar was the 56,449th guitar of Hamer production. It's last. So, it is absolutely impossible that this guitar SN #356450 is not counterfeit with a serial number that would reflect a 2013 manufacture date with a higher production number than the last guitar built in 2014 SN #456449. This information also flies in the face of what I believe to be absolute BS in the item description: "...this guitar hung up in the factory for years." Sorry Al, you were sold a fish tale. ....NLMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 No offense Your story is just that ... a story with no basis in facts I know the facts ... ehhhh your facts may be alternative facts it makes a nice story but was not what happened but I know where the guitar came from it is absolutely real it never saw a dumpster and was absolutely built in the factory absolutely all hamer parts with exception of the pickups the guitar was built by an employee I have no clue what is up with the s/n but think about it who would waste a gazillion legit hamer decals on a guitar????? you don’t have to believe it but you are wrong still lmfao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrdaddy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Anyone else in the know like to chime in on the serial numbers? @cmatthes @serial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkeller Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Well, since I have direct info, the guitar in question is built entirely of Hamer USA parts. The body was logo-fied in Arlington Heights in the early 90’s and came to New Hartford with other parts. I saw it a few times digging through obsolete parts on the 5th floor before they were moved to the 2nd floor. How it was assembled doesn’t seem to be the question here. I'm not sure what constitutes a ‘legit’ guitar, I have a Daytona with a T-51 neck that I bought during the transition from AH to NH. Is that legit? I have the receipt from Hamer. As far as the serial number, no clue, but ultimately it just doesn’t matter, the guitar is a Hamer. Just to be clear, Fender did not send people in at the end, the venture capital company that owns Fender (as well as many other companies) sent a ‘closer’ named Elmer Miller in January, 2014. We were informed in March that the shop would be closing, and about half of the staff went home that day. The rest of us were told to trash everything in the building, including tooling, parts, finished stock, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 1 hour ago, gtrdaddy said: Anyone else in the know like to chime in on the serial numbers? @cmatthes @serial Serial number could have been a ton of different things obviously the guitar was used as an experiment Does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamerCustomEr Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 39 minutes ago, kkeller said: at the end, the venture capital company that owns Fender (as well as many other companies) sent a ‘closer’ named Elmer Miller in January, 2014. We were informed in March that the shop would be closing, and about half of the staff went home that day. The rest of us were told to trash everything in the building, including tooling, parts, finished stock, etc. You trashed finished stock?? No!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustKid Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I think at the end of the day it's all about value. The difference between this particular example and production line Hamer is, this guitar was put together by someone in an unknown period of time from some parts that were laying around and absolutely random serial number was applied in a format, that does not belong to any Chaparral, Californian, Daytona or T51 etc. of the era. I'm not talking about number itself, just about format. So whoever put it together didn't care much, probably built it for himself with no intent to sell it as production line instrument... And if you look at the logo on the headstock - definitely an experiment. So are the parts Hamer? Absolutely. But again, it's all about price and re-sale value. And since this topic started as PSA with no affiliation to the sale, we can discuss the price, I think; and in regards to the price - Do I think it should cost as much as production line guitar?, I think NO. No offence to the seller, just mere response to the first post. I have Gibson R7, put together some 18 years ago at the comfort of his home by ex Gibson employee who worked with reissues. Serial, COA...whole 9 yards, all custom shop, will never tell the difference. Is it a nice guitar? Yes, one of the best, but did I pay R7 price of $3+K for it ? Absolutely not, not even a half. So to me, it's pretty much the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkeller Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 3 hours ago, HamerCustomEr said: You trashed finished stock?? No!!!!! There wasn’t much finished stock of Hamers by the time we locked the doors. At that point I was trying to shepherd through as many custom orders as I could get done, even though Hamer was technically closed. Most of the butcher block work tables, machines, parts, etc, etc. got thrown in the dumpsters. We did bandsaw up dozens of Guilds, sometimes in the cases! The choice was to do what they told us to do or lose our severance package, and most of us were there for 20 years+, so the financial pressure was substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 That sucks that you were forced to do that. Another reason I will never buy a Fender. ( I still blame Fender). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 8 hours ago, kkeller said: There wasn’t much finished stock of Hamers by the time we locked the doors. At that point I was trying to shepherd through as many custom orders as I could get done, even though Hamer was technically closed. Most of the butcher block work tables, machines, parts, etc, etc. got thrown in the dumpsters. We did bandsaw up dozens of Guilds, sometimes in the cases! The choice was to do what they told us to do or lose our severance package, and most of us were there for 20 years+, so the financial pressure was substantial. I've never understood why that happens. Does it do anything but waste money? Can they now write them off as some type of business expense or loss if they are destroyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biz Prof Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said: Does it do anything but waste money? Technically speaking, yes. It serves as evidence of loss for your next question... 18 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said: Can they now write them off as some type of business expense or loss if they are destroyed? Yes, in most cases, this is exactly what occurs, although a shuttering company that ceases operation today cannot legally/reasonably be expected to be both (a) shuttered and (b) lingering in order to dispose of finished goods in inventory. They're either operating or dissolved--they can't be both simultaneously. CMatthes wrote an eloquent and legally accurate response to a nearly identical question a couple of years ago. Probably worth looking up if you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostArt Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 10 hours ago, JustKid said: I think at the end of the day it's all about value. The difference between this particular example and production line Hamer is, this guitar was put together by someone in an unknown period of time from some parts that were laying around and absolutely random serial number was applied in a format, that does not belong to any Chaparral, Californian, Daytona or T51 etc. of the era. I'm not talking about number itself, just about format. So whoever put it together didn't care much, probably built it for himself with no intent to sell it as production line instrument... And if you look at the logo on the headstock - definitely an experiment. So are the parts Hamer? Absolutely. But again, it's all about price and re-sale value. And since this topic started as PSA with no affiliation to the sale, we can discuss the price, I think; and in regards to the price - Do I think it should cost as much as production line guitar?, I think NO. No offence to the seller, just mere response to the first post. I have Gibson R7, put together some 18 years ago at the comfort of his home by ex Gibson employee who worked with reissues. Serial, COA...whole 9 yards, all custom shop, will never tell the difference. Is it a nice guitar? Yes, one of the best, but did I pay R7 price of $3+K for it ? Absolutely not, not even a half. So to me, it's pretty much the same situation. Again ... a nice story... but not THE story why are martins that were made employee guitars highly desirable ? No logo no brand often no indication at all that the guitar was a Martin? as per your les Paul I had a custom shop r7 built by a custom shop employee for himself no coa case candy etc ... it did hVe one of the most striking tops you ever saw on a guitar and it was an amazing playing and sounding guitar ... I represented it as such and the buyer paid dearly for it and is still in love with the guitar I HATE the price police ...generally people that rarely buy but are happy to pontificate about what your guitar is worth ... yet are the first to ask top dollar for their own stuff ymmv wow have not posted here for years and now posted a bunch of times in a couple weeks ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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