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Hamer now owned by Washburn....


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Not really.   Mike wants to focus on his own designs as much as possible.  

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On 10/22/2020 at 3:30 PM, polara said:

Makes me wonder what is a guitar brand. Is it the people? 

Is it the designs? Is it the philosophy? The logo? The target market? I don't mean it in a negative way, but what do we collectively think a Hamer is?

 

^^^^^^^^

I think you hit it right on the collective head.

I think it's all of what you said.

Every successive group or individual that mans the helm, takes over the process of creating the product, has to maintain the core beliefs, the inspiration and principles to make the brand carry on.

 

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On 10/22/2020 at 8:39 PM, Jakeboy said:

Could be worse. Could be Peavey.

I did that for you, @kizanski!

I unfortunately have to install Media Matrix NION Nx processors.

I remember when Media Matrix was launched by Peavey and I just said No!

I would trust and accept a less expensive line from a quality brand than a cheap brand trying to taut it's "high end pro" line.

And before anybody says "yeah, well what about the CS400 and CS800 power amps huh?"

Those were direct rip-offs of the BGW 750C power amp which BGW sued them over.

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On 10/23/2020 at 7:48 AM, kizanski said:

I don't believe that for a second.  Never have.
Tooling, parts, plans... they always tend to "show up" mysteriously years later.

 

I agree

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On 10/24/2020 at 9:33 PM, Northfield said:

These are production guitars from New Hartford that got stopped in mid process, and have been hanging around in limbo for a quite a few years.  They have the original tape and notes on the neck about things to fix after first level.  @Jackass didn't let anything get by him.  God, I miss working with that guy.  

This guy...Todd?

6a00e54ee874da8833012876da491f970c.jpg

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On 10/27/2020 at 2:53 PM, Biz Prof said:

But, but, but...then every Hamer could be shipped with a "Peavey Powered" sticker on the case.  It's the ultimate anti-theft device for music gear, you know.

Not just music gear.

It would work on anything shipped by FedEx, UPS, DHL, USPS etc.,

Anything going through TSA too!

That really is a Brilliant idea!

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7 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

And before anybody says "yeah, well what about the CS400 and CS800 power amps huh?"

Those were direct rip-offs of the BGW 750C power amp which BGW sued them over.

Peavey CS800 introduced 1976. BGW 750B and C introduced 1978. From the two companies respective websites.

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4 hours ago, Tortious said:

The Hamer web site https://www.hamerguitars.com seems to have no new NAMM announcements. If it was going to happen, now would be the time to say so.

It does mention that it's 'a DCC business' at the bottom of the page. :shrug:

Why do they sell these guitars? It just so sad. 

It's like a store that used to sell pedigree dogs. And now all they sell are the dog turds.

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On 1/31/2021 at 11:23 AM, Disturber said:

And now all they sell are the dog turds.

That sounds smelly...

I have a different opinion. It keeps the brand alive to an audience. If it were that at some time they'd start a custom shop again. That would be fine.

The original Hamer had been sold at the end of the 80s if I recall correctly. Hence, anything later, until the rear end, had not been "original" anyway. The company made different directions with various quality levels and model politics. So what's the continuum?

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I agree with Gorch, but I understand how many feel "certain" builders and emps made for a special  time during the later years. To be honest, as well as the New Hartford guitars were made, I wasn't impressed with either of the 2 later Standards I owned  only because  they felt nothing like a 4 digit neck .   For me that was everything. Things change.

Off topic, I totally understood Jol's philosophy of wanting to move forward and come up with different designs etc.  What a man builds during his 30-40's is likely not to his tastes into his 50-60's .

  What I will never get is while certain models were fetching astronomical money in the used market  he refused to revisit those on a custom order basis. They had the cad files or templates, why not prop up the bottom line instead of cork screwing the company into the ground ?

Then again, it's pretty easy to arm chair quarterback a business model, when it isn't your money or name on the line

 

Washburn brought Hamer back to ILL, paid dearly for the name I'm sure,  and if they build the guitars at least  as well as before the Kaman buy out late 80's, while bringing back some iconic models "faithfully",   I don't care who is building them.

The factory pic I shared does not give me much confidence that the 80's models are coming back any time soon and that is the limit of my interest in the brand.


 

 

 

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I highly doubt we will ever see a new USA-built Hamer, and am totally fine with that.  The ship has sailed, and I have zero interest in whatever is cobbled together without the original DNA.  Could somebody build fine instruments, resurrecting the USA Hamer designs, but starting 100%from scratch?  Sure, but they'll be a copy in every sense of the word in my opinion.  There is simply no connection to the original brand there - no tooling, no plans, schematics, forms, templates, etc.

I am sure that the Florida-based Deans build a decent guitar, but I would never buy one, personally.  They're copies of the originals.  The chain was broken there, and any Hamers going forward without a direct connection will be the same.  Hamer being acquired in 1988 by KAMAN was totally different, because the same company continued largely "as is" with a new parent.  This is like an Ed Roman Baker project to me.

 

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My opinion is always wrong, but if they would put out Diablos at a base price of around $800-$900, with some upcharges for custom features (ebony fingerboard, special inlays, ss frets, upgraded pickups, flame tops), Vintage Ss for $1200-1400, and Virtuoso!s for about $2500, I would buy a bunch of them.

That's just because in my opinion, those guitars with those specs/neck angles, fingerboard radius, etc., played the absolute best, and there's nothing else out there that feels/plays like they do.

I think the Diablo is simple enough they could make money at $800.  The Vintage S less simple, but still doable at $1200-1400, especially if they skip the EQ. And I don't see how you could lose money on a well-made Virt at $2500 or so.  On the other hand, my opinion is always wrong, so...

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A Diablo priced at $800ish would likely have to be Indonesian or maybe MIM to make money. Even the PRS S2 series (which are somewhat stripped down from the Core series) which are US built iirc start at $999. I doubt Hamer made much profit on the Diablos new (at $799 in 1993 dollars iirc) even though they had some simplifications compared to other shredders. It'd be really tough to make profits at that price now.

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Pretty much what Stonge said - he's exactly right.  Diablos (and the early '90s Specials) were loss leaders for Hamer.  They lost money almost 30 years ago at those prices on those, but they were the "gateway drugs" into the more expensive, more profitable lines. 

US labor is terribly expensive in 2021, and $800-$900 for a USA Diablo would likely not even cover the cost of the parts and case.   Factor in the labor hours to make one, everything from the warehousing, logistics, dealer network and costs, and you're still losing money at $1,800-$1,900 for that guitar.  

As far as building a sub-$2,500 Vintage S...have you priced what instrument grade flame maple goes for lately?  ;)

In all honesty, you'd have a tough time building a good quality parts guitar with nice hardware for $800-$900 - without the finish.

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58 minutes ago, stonge said:

A Diablo priced at $800ish would likely have to be Indonesian or maybe MIM to make money. Even the PRS S2 series (which are somewhat stripped down from the Core series) which are US built iirc start at $999. I doubt Hamer made much profit on the Diablos new (at $799 in 1993 dollars iirc) even though they had some simplifications compared to other shredders. It'd be really tough to make profits at that price now.

 

5 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

Pretty much what Stonge said - he's exactly right.  Diablos (and the early '90s Specials) were loss leaders for Hamer.  They lost money almost 30 years ago at those prices on those, but they were the "gateway drugs" into the more expensive, more profitable lines. 

US labor is terribly expensive in 2021, and $800-$900 for a USA Diablo would likely not even cover the cost of the parts and case.   Factor in the labor hours to make one, everything from the warehousing, logistics, dealer network and costs, and you're still losing money at $1,800-$1,900 for that guitar.  

As far as building a sub-$2,500 Vintage S...have you priced what instrument grade flame maple goes for lately?  ;)

makes sense.

I guess I wouldn't mind Indonesian-made Diablos and Vintage Ss (which is probably influencing my fuzzy grasp of prices), except that then they aren't USA Hamers, so the whole notion falls apart.

 

Ah, well.  My main thing is just not understanding how nothing feels like a Diablo but a Diablo (and some Vintage Ss, for some reason), and why that feel wasn't/isn't more sought after, and wishing there were more guitars like that out there.

I've had Californians and Centauras and even Chaps that were great, but the Diablos I've owned were just on another level..  Like they could almost play themselves.

I just got a Diablo from tbonesullivan, and confirmed it. It just plays better than the Centaura I got a few months ago. Nothing wrong with the Centaura...just the Diablo plays easier.

I wish I could figure out what the elements were that contribute to that feel.

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One point of clarification, however:
What I loved about the Vintage Ss wasn't the solid chunk of flamed maple, but the way it was put together so it played as easily as a Diablo, despite having an entirely different trem.

I'd love a Vintage S just as much if it were solid Swamp Ash, or Mahogany with a Maple cap, or what have you.

It's the design that I think is somewhat unique, but I'm probably wrong about that, too.

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2 hours ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

I think the Diablo is simple enough they could make money at $800.  The Vintage S less simple, but still doable at $1200-1400, especially if they skip the EQ. And I don't see how you could lose money on a well-made Virt at $2500 or so.  On the other hand, my opinion is always wrong, so...

 

3 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

I'd love a Vintage S just as much if it were solid Swamp Ash, or Mahogany with a Maple cap, or what have you.

It's the design that I think is somewhat unique, but I'm probably wrong about that, too.

Opinions are not the right or wrong. It's math and modern manufacturing that has you stymied.

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1 minute ago, RobB said:

 

Opinions are not the right or wrong. It's math and modern manufacturing that has you stymied.

In the US, yes

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This board is 95% of the market for any sort of meaningful Hamer USA revival.  Who else wants one ( or even remembers the brand?)

As much as the HFC loves the brand and the past, what this board's market wants is the build quality of Hamer USA and custom order possibilities in evolutionary designs.

And that is covered by Shishkov.  

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1 hour ago, Toadroller said:

This board is 95% of the market for any sort of meaningful Hamer USA revival.  Who else wants one ( or even remembers the brand?)

As much as the HFC loves the brand and the past, what this board's market wants is the build quality of Hamer USA and custom order possibilities in evolutionary designs.

And that is covered by Shishkov.  

And for the Hamer USA quality to come in at a price point of $350...

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1 hour ago, Toadroller said:

And that is covered by Shishkov.  

With total respect to Mike Shishkov, it is not 100% covered by him. Otherwise, guys like Jim (Diablo) would not be going to luthiers like Shane Huss (HEL) to resurrect iconic Hamer models via custom order. 

Mike's got his own designs, which are stellar. A few, however, will want the older sillouettes, and that's cool, too.

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