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If Not a Lester (with a "G"), What?


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Okay, so I am going to go with a separate thread from the one last week that talked about what makes a GREAT Les Paul and the price to pay for them. I did not want to distract from the exact discussion. But there was clearly some interest (or curiosity) in what "good alternatives" are to running the racks to find "the one". I suspect  y'all can post good to great options running from $1k to $10k, or whatever is out there.

Blame BCR Greg for setting me off on this trek.......

My main thing in now posting is that I mentioned having a chance this week to dig into a pair of the higher end ones......Two Gustavvsons, both goldtops, one each HB and P-90 equipped. In theory (they tell me) guitars with a $10k "value". We took some time to play them next to several other "singlecuts", all tributes to the Les Paul, but none made by Gibson. Some major differences, for sure. Are the Gustavvsons MUCH better? Not so sure. Something about the premium price for that extra 5-10%.....

Cut to the chase. My friend did not offer them for sale, I did not offer to buy either. He went home, as expected, with both., as well as a relatively higher end PRS (which I posted here a while back). I did think that his were both great. I would much enjoy owning either one. Cannot justify it.

My first impression is that they were both unusually light. The sounds were great. Sorta lighter and chimier than my impression of a "typical" Les Paul. As my buddy said, they have a good clean sound, but come alive with gain. I agree. (We played them against a couple PRS Private Stocks, another with different pickups and rosewood neck, a Hartung Sephir, Huber Orca 59, Fibenare SC with rw neck, chambered AND my Hamer Elite GT (with non SD P-90s)

The Hamer was much different than the Gustavvson with P90s. Heavier, much fatter sounding.  I would def say the latter is "better" overall. Not that I would consider trading it for the Hamer and $7K, y'unnerstand!

Just for fun, I asked him to plug in the Orca 59. He immediately said, "Now THAT is what a GIBSON LP SHOULD be!" (Keep in mind it has the 25" scale, so perhaps slightly less "authentic," if you are nitpicking). He also liked the Hartung and Fibenare. He has a good bit of GAS, so who knows what happens next month? He may want to come back from something else......Of the six I have sold in 2021, he has taken three.......I reckon I SHOULD sell about 3 more singlecuts, sooner or later.

God bless those that wanna spend $10k or so for the ones that yield huge praise in certain circles. (Gustavvson, Yaron, etc). That is not me. But I can see how some might want to pay that much a premium.

I do not want to get carried away here. I have been guilty of that more than once. For now, let me just respond to the request to post pictures of the one (LP alternative) I was praising and said I had no intent to ever sell. It is the one the Greg Platzer sold to me 8-9 years ago. No regrets at all. Not as spectacular a top as the one I recently sold here. But the overall wood selection ( inc flamed MAHOGANY body and neck) does please me. And, yes, I HAVE played it out, though the Dolphin is still the one I first grab when I head out (or USED to head out) to play.

Orca 59 full.jpgOrca 59 Back.jpg.

I suppose I can dig up some guitar pron of the other "not exactly Les Pals" later, if anyone is interested.....

In the meantime. anyone else wanting to post pretty pix is encouraged!

 

 

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4 hours ago, django49 said:

Okay, so I am going to go with a separate thread from the one last week that talked about what makes a GREAT Les Paul and the price to pay for them. I did not want to distract from the exact discussion. But there was clearly some interest (or curiosity) in what "good alternatives" are to running the racks to find "the one". I suspect  y'all can post good to great options running from $1k to $10k, or whatever is out there.

Blame BCR Greg for setting me off on this trek.......

My main thing in now posting is that I mentioned having a chance this week to dig into a pair of the higher end ones......Two Gustavvsons, both goldtops, one each HB and P-90 equipped. In theory (they tell me) guitars with a $10k "value". We took some time to play them next to several other "singlecuts", all tributes to the Les Paul, but none made by Gibson. Some major differences, for sure. Are the Gustavvsons MUCH better? Not so sure. Something about the premium price for that extra 5-10%.....

Cut to the chase. My friend did not offer them for sale, I did not offer to buy either. He went home, as expected, with both., as well as a relatively higher end PRS (which I posted here a while back). I did think that his were both great. I would much enjoy owning either one. Cannot justify it.

My first impression is that they were both unusually light. The sounds were great. Sorta lighter and chimier than my impression of a "typical" Les Paul. As my buddy said, they have a good clean sound, but come alive with gain. I agree. (We played them against a couple PRS Private Stocks, another with different pickups and rosewood neck, a Hartung Sephir, Huber Orca 59, Fibenare SC with rw neck, chambered AND my Hamer Elite GT (with non SD P-90s)

The Hamer was much different than the Gustavvson with P90s. Heavier, much fatter sounding.  I would def say the latter is "better" overall. Not that I would consider trading it for the Hamer and $7K, y'unnerstand!

Just for fun, I asked him to plug in the Orca 59. He immediately said, "Now THAT is what a GIBSON LP SHOULD be!" (Keep in mind it has the 25" scale, so perhaps slightly less "authentic," if you are nitpicking). He also liked the Hartung and Fibenare. He has a good bit of GAS, so who knows what happens next month? He may want to come back from something else......Of the six I have sold in 2021, he has taken three.......I reckon I SHOULD sell about 3 more singlecuts, sooner or later.

God bless those that wanna spend $10k or so for the ones that yield huge praise in certain circles. (Gustavvson, Yaron, etc). That is not me. But I can see how some might want to pay that much a premium.

I do not want to get carried away here. I have been guilty of that more than once. For now, let me just respond to the request to post pictures of the one (LP alternative) I was praising and said I had no intent to ever sell. It is the one the Greg Platzer sold to me 8-9 years ago. No regrets at all. Not as spectacular a top as the one I recently sold here. But the overall wood selection ( inc flamed MAHOGANY body and neck) does please me. And, yes, I HAVE played it out, though the Dolphin is still the one I first grab when I head out (or USED to head out) to play.

Orca 59 full.jpgOrca 59 Back.jpg.

I suppose I can dig up some guitar pron of the other "not exactly Les Pals" later, if anyone is interested.....

In the meantime. anyone else wanting to post pretty pix is encouraged!

 

 

That’s gorgeous. Thanks for posting. And I’m always interested in more guitar pron. 

 

image.gif

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I love the sound of Les Pauls, convinced myself to get one a few times, tried several, but never took one home.  Same with 335s, although I got closer. 

I found the Hamer Artist Studio, though, which gets me in the ballpark, but I think it's a bit more on the 335 side, at least from the sound in my head. 

I also found a used PRS Mira, which I really like, but I don't think it sounds like an LP.  It has its own sound and is the easiest playing, most comfortable guitar.

The guitar that gets me closest to the full, rich, wicked, encompassing multitudes LP sound I imagined is, rather, a G&L Korina ASAT Jr.  I love the sound of it, but it's also the most uncomfortable for me to play. I often get a welt on my forearm with it (but I don't on my Tele, probably as I have to pick further back on the ASAT not to hit the pickup).

Here are the Artist and ASAT.

spacer.png

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Never forget the Gustavsson Hamer Sunburst copy. Johan Gustavsson is a big Hamer fan. He has repaired, and refinished a few old gems over the years. I think that Hamer was a big influence on him when he started building guitars. So, there is a little bit of Hamer in every Gustavsson guitar. 😉 

I know one guy on this board who has a Les Paul copy, G logo'ed and everything. I have promised never to tell as Gustavsson officialy does not build copies. This one was built a long time ago though. It's a killer Les Paul.

Funny anecdote. Johan had my 91 Les Paul Classic in for a fix (from the former owner). He picked it up and played it and first thought it was a real 50's LP. 

y4mOEcAZ5pXoMLVRm5XQVokcx40mT9-elQyS7HeG

 

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3 hours ago, Disturber said:

Johan had my 91 Les Paul Classic in for a fix (from the former owner). He picked it up and played it and first thought it was a real 50's LP. 

So, what you're telling us is that Johan doesn't see very well?

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5 hours ago, Disturber said:

Never forget the Gustavsson Hamer Sunburst copy. Johan Gustavsson is a big Hamer fan. He has repaired, and refinished a few old gems over the years. I think that Hamer was a big influence on him when he started building guitars. So, there is a little bit of Hamer in every Gustavsson guitar. 😉 

I know one guy on this board who has a Les Paul copy, G logo'ed and everything. I have promised never to tell as Gustavsson officialy does not build copies. This one was built a long time ago though. It's a killer Les Paul.

Funny anecdote. Johan had my 91 Les Paul Classic in for a fix (from the former owner). He picked it up and played it and first thought it was a real 50's LP. 

y4mOEcAZ5pXoMLVRm5XQVokcx40mT9-elQyS7HeG

 

                                                   I remember that one as well ,a fantastic looking guitar. It was a early one and the seller was asking 15K for it!

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26 minutes ago, ARM OF HAMER said:

                                                   I remember that one as well ,a fantastic looking guitar. It was a early one and the seller was asking 15K for it!

Should have just bought a 70's Sunburst for 2K instead. 

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5 hours ago, Disturber said:

Should have just bought a 70's Sunburst for 2K instead. 

                                 I did just that.......................... bought the first B&C'd  79 off Ebay for $ 1,200.00 and later found a 2'd 79 also B&C 'd for $1,600.00. I'd have a really hard time giving 15K or anywhere near that for this guitar. I do love it though.

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                                 I have had some really nice Gibson Les Paul guitars through the years all the way back to the late 1960s when i got my first one. I first saw this Make/ Model when they first came out and really didn't pay that much attention as it was way out of  my price range. Now it's my retirement guitar, that last guitar I will buy and I have stuck to that since buying it. I love this guitar for how it looks, plays and sounds, nothing about it I don't like. It is or was................Yamaha's  
"TAKE" on a updated version of a Gibson Les Paul. One piece Honduran Mahogany body,5 piece Honduran Mahogany and maple neck, Ebony fingerboard, "Sculptured" neck heal, real Pearl and Abalone inlays, beautiful thick Quilt Maple top ["Not a veneer"], bound body, neck, and headstock............. top grade hardware, top grade electronics, with so many tone choices with the 4 wire pickups and .................a perfect case. A great "LESS" PAUL.................that is W/O the "G".0U4lY6E.jpg D3dqbgY.jpg

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The best Les Pauls that I've had were Gibsons.  That's right, I said it.
I've had a couple of R7s that were amazing, a couple of R8s that were even better, and a 3 pickup '70 Custom that was almost too much.

But if we're talking about non-Gibson "Les Pauls," the best one I've ever had was the Baker '59 Replica that I had years ago.
It was feather light (not chambered), played effortlessly and sounded amazing.
So, of course I sold it.

DSCN8255.JPG

BURSTREPLICA8.JPG

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I'm not really a Les Paul guy, but the best I played was a $350 Aria Pro II from about '79. LS 600D model, I think. Built like a Gibson, correct thickness and contours, Dimarzio pickups, just had that sound. Pretty beat up, but what a player. Yes, I've tried real and high-end LPs but genuinely liked the Aria best.

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14 minutes ago, kizanski said:

The best Les Pauls that I've had were Gibsons.  That's right, I said it.

I must concur. Nothing else sounds like a Gibson Les Paul. Only Gibson Les Paul sounds like a Gibson Les Paul. While I've owned many Lester style guitars, none sound like real Les Pauls. And, the best sounding and playing Lester's I've had were R8 models. Kicking myself in the ass for letting the last one go. Oh well. Tomorrow is another day.

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2 minutes ago, polara said:

I'm not really a Les Paul guy, but the best I played was a $350 Aria Pro II from about '79. LS 600D model, I think. Built like a Gibson, correct thickness and contours, Dimarzio pickups, just had that sound. Pretty beat up, but what a player. Yes, I've tried real and high-end LPs but genuinely liked the Aria best.

I owned a couple of Arias back in the day. They were fine guitars. Wouldn't mind finding a nice old one to have again, but after owning a couple and trying dozens in the '70s and '80s, they didn't sound like a Gibson. Very similar, but none that I touched had "it."

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Most who know me here know that I lean heavily towards Japanese copies of LPs, mainly Tokai and Crews these days. My #1 has been the same 2003 Tokai LS-320 that I bought about 15 years ago. Since then, I've added another LS-320 (2002) and a fantastic Crews Limited Edition. The Tokais are the peak of Japanese craftsmanship, IMO and are spec'd in line with the best the Gibson Custom Shop has to offer, Honduras mahogany body and neck, high grade hard flame maple cap, Brazilian RW fretboard, very thin lacquer finish, US electronics including PIO caps, Duncan pickups. Over the years, I've been through many LPs at all levels and made in a variety of countries (US, Japan, Germany, etc.) and the 2 Tokais remain my favorites for feel, playability, tone, and look. I will say that both have had pickup upgrades that took already great guitars into phenomenal territory, IMO.

The Crews is a limited model named "Next 5D" (don't ask me where the name comes from). Apparently this was a 50th Anniversary model for the Key Musicland retailer in Japan. 20 were made. I wanted to try this one out largely for the pickups that are installed in it, a pair of K&T NFS Weeps. K&T pickups are an uber high end pickup winder established by the same man who designed and made the famed Maxon DryZ pickups of the early 80s. New, the pickups sell in Japan for around $1,500 a pair and up. I am certainly not prepared to pay that for pickups alone, but since I was able to pick up this guitar for around the same price, seemed like a good idea. And I'm glad I did, because the guitar itself is absolutely incredible. The specs aren't quite as "high end" as the Tokais, but still nice with African mahogany (apparently air dried for 30 years), a more subtle flamed hard maple cap, Indian Rosewood fretboard and very thin lacquer finish. The neck is a little bigger, more 58 than 59 which I love. On top of that, I find the pickups to be some of the best I've ever heard. For me they provide the perfect low output "tele on steroids" LP tone.

For me, it has always been about price for value. I know that the MIJ clones are not designed for the US market, but some make it here anyway. And I can consistently find guitars with the same or better materials, built to the same or better standards, that play and sound as good or better than their counterparts, for half or a third of an Authentic LP. And I tend to stick with the more modern models (2000 and later) as opposed to the 70s 80s models (though I have experience with those, too). 

Here are the 2 Tokai LS-320s, 2003 on the left, 2002 on the right.

y4mMk8YiXB_rKavVcIdzXfxn61JqDyD6o3M0uwWr

Here's the Crews

y4mX9Zzx5FT7VLusXZ6PuHyTMx5zZVPpl8jeNBsa

y4m-7jJtua81u6P47L1U0JXFef09SdVRLK89XSTu

 

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1 hour ago, currypowder said:

Most who know me here know that I lean heavily towards Japanese copies of LPs, mainly Tokai and Crews these days. My #1 has been the same 2003 Tokai LS-320 that I bought about 15 years ago. Since then, I've added another LS-320 (2002) and a fantastic Crews Limited Edition. The Tokais are the peak of Japanese craftsmanship, IMO and are spec'd in line with the best the Gibson Custom Shop has to offer, Honduras mahogany body and neck, high grade hard flame maple cap, Brazilian RW fretboard, very thin lacquer finish, US electronics including PIO caps, Duncan pickups. Over the years, I've been through many LPs at all levels and made in a variety of countries (US, Japan, Germany, etc.) and the 2 Tokais remain my favorites for feel, playability, tone, and look. I will say that both have had pickup upgrades that took already great guitars into phenomenal territory, IMO.

The Crews is a limited model named "Next 5D" (don't ask me where the name comes from). Apparently this was a 50th Anniversary model for the Key Musicland retailer in Japan. 20 were made. I wanted to try this one out largely for the pickups that are installed in it, a pair of K&T NFS Weeps. K&T pickups are an uber high end pickup winder established by the same man who designed and made the famed Maxon DryZ pickups of the early 80s. New, the pickups sell in Japan for around $1,500 a pair and up. I am certainly not prepared to pay that for pickups alone, but since I was able to pick up this guitar for around the same price, seemed like a good idea. And I'm glad I did, because the guitar itself is absolutely incredible. The specs aren't quite as "high end" as the Tokais, but still nice with African mahogany (apparently air dried for 30 years), a more subtle flamed hard maple cap, Indian Rosewood fretboard and very thin lacquer finish. The neck is a little bigger, more 58 than 59 which I love. On top of that, I find the pickups to be some of the best I've ever heard. For me they provide the perfect low output "tele on steroids" LP tone.

For me, it has always been about price for value. I know that the MIJ clones are not designed for the US market, but some make it here anyway. And I can consistently find guitars with the same or better materials, built to the same or better standards, that play and sound as good or better than their counterparts, for half or a third of an Authentic LP. And I tend to stick with the more modern models (2000 and later) as opposed to the 70s 80s models (though I have experience with those, too). 

Here are the 2 Tokai LS-320s, 2003 on the left, 2002 on the right.

y4mMk8YiXB_rKavVcIdzXfxn61JqDyD6o3M0uwWr

Here's the Crews

y4mX9Zzx5FT7VLusXZ6PuHyTMx5zZVPpl8jeNBsa

y4m-7jJtua81u6P47L1U0JXFef09SdVRLK89XSTu

 

Those Tokais are SICK!  Looks like the 2003 once had a Pickguard installed on it while the 2002 did not...

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1 hour ago, Travis said:

Those Tokais are SICK!  Looks like the 2003 once had a Pickguard installed on it while the 2002 did not...

Thanks!

Yeah, a previous owner of the '03 had a pickguard installed and, unfortunately, used a fat-ass screw to do it. With tops that nice, I want them as uncovered as possible.

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And some copies are strictly from hunger. Oops, I mean Hungary. Pretty high level too, though not at the highest price point. One case in point.......This one is very lightweight, owing to the chambering, despite the rosewood neck. It actually felt (IMO) similar to the Gustavvsons. The sound, though, is less like the typical LP. Call it a touch of air, not unlike the Hamer Artist Custom....

Fibenare Closeup.jpgFibenare Back.jpgFibenare.jpg

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To the thread title, if not a Lester with a "G", while to me nothing is the same, there are many others that while different, are quite enjoyable! This WL McCarty 594 is as pleasurable to play as my other special blue PRS, the DGT. 

180270146_lg8.jpg

180270146_lg6.jpg

 

Another non-LP sounding guitar I love to jump on is my Monaco spruce top. Love it. 25.5" scale, definitely not a LP, but equally enjoyable.

IMG_6539 (1).jpeg

Yep, got it from Dave.

There are numerous guitar as enjoyable as a Gibson Lester. This thread could go on forever! 

 

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2 minutes ago, cynic said:

My Yaron is tough to distinguish from the real ones because it's a copy to the last detail, but here's a body shot that excludes the bits on the headstock some find criminal.

IMG_6564 copy.jpg

 

There is of course the exception to the rule... 

Very nice!

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3 hours ago, gtrdaddy said:

To the thread title, if not a Lester with a "G", while to me nothing is the same, there are many others that while different, are quite enjoyable! This WL McCarty 594 is as pleasurable to play as my other special blue PRS, the DGT. 

180270146_lg8.jpg

180270146_lg6.jpg

 

Another non-LP sounding guitar I love to jump on is my Monaco spruce top. Love it. 25.5" scale, definitely not a LP, but equally enjoyable.

IMG_6539 (1).jpeg

Yep, got it from Dave.

There are numerous guitar as enjoyable as a Gibson Lester. This thread could go on forever! 

 

Well, technically, a DGT DOES have a G in there somewhere, even if it is not a singlecut... Maybe on the truss rod cover.....

Either a DGT or a 594 might play into the mindset of some that do not believe that "Only a Gibson is Good Enough". Or whatever the old ads said.

PRS DGT Pernambuco9.jpgPRS 594SC-1.jpg

And Monaco variations do not take a backseat to anything, IMO........Maybe cheating just a bit as this is the longer scale variety.....

Hamer Monaco Goldtop3.JPG

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I'll put my Heritage H150 (Hold your comments on the headstock) up against ANY Gibby or Lester copy. I've owned 3 Custom Shop Les Pauls, A Huber and a Tom Anderson Bulldog. This Heritage is one-of-a-kind in the tone dept. There's some magic wood that went into this one.

H150.jpg

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2 hours ago, santellavision said:

I'll put my Heritage H150 (Hold your comments on the headstock) up against ANY Gibby or Lester copy. I've owned 3 Custom Shop Les Pauls, A Huber and a Tom Anderson Bulldog. This Heritage is one-of-a-kind in the tone dept. There's some magic wood that went into this one.

H150.jpg

I bought one years ago that played great and sounded exceptional.

....then, The Heritage began to show its true colors. Binding that felt rough at its edges since new began separating from the body.... then a fog appeared in the finish, that grew...and grew...and grew until I couldn't stand the sight of it.

A real shame. I liked that guitar. But the shit fit and finish pushed me over the edge. It had to go. Glad you've had much better luck than me with Heritage!

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2 hours ago, gtrdaddy said:

I bought one years ago that played great and sounded exceptional.

....then, The Heritage began to show its true colors. Binding that felt rough at its edges since new began separating from the body.... then a fog appeared in the finish, that grew...and grew...and grew until I couldn't stand the sight of it.

A real shame. I liked that guitar. But the shit fit and finish pushed me over the edge. It had to go. Glad you've had much better luck than me with Heritage!

I've owned three Heritages.  

The H-150 GT was a pretty sweet guitar.  I probably should have help on to it, but I didn't.  I would probably just buy a Gibby GT over one now. 

The H-535 was great.  Sold it to a friend when I was in financial need, and the asshole will only sell it back to me at a markup.  So much for that "if you ever want it back, I'll sell it back to you for the same price."   Lol, oh well.  Ultimately my fault for getting financially out of sorts. Point is I've played it as recently as two months ago, and it's every bit as good as I remembered and is a better guitar than the 335 I used to own. 

The H-157 sucked ass. I wanted a white LPC and couldn't afford it so bought one of those instead.  The fit and finish was terrible.  

I don't hate the brand as much as some here or at all really, but I've never really been tempted to buy another one either. I'd much rather have another Hamer studio than another H-150.  This post made me go check out what people are asking for used H-150s on Reverb right now and...  lol, just no.  

Oh well.  A little music shop in my hometown made me interested in Hamers and Heritage, so there is no small bit of nostalgia wrapped up in both brands for me.  I remember being 16, hanging out there, and hearing all about how these two companies were in the same vein as Gibson but still made them right.  I loved hanging out up there and, by extension, have a soft spot for both brands.  But you can't play a memory, so I ended up an actual fan of Hamers. 

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