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Neck Shims?


BoogieMKIIA

Question

I am trying to dial in my new ASAT Classic Tribute (import) and having trouble getting the high E lower and not buzzing of fretting out. If it is fret related I will take it to someone how knows what they are doing.

Could a too shallow neck angle be a cause? A flat neck angle would mean less space for the string to move. As the saddle goes lower, the sting will just lay on all the frets.

Asking because a lot of info on shims describes where saddle height is at extreme high or low travel, need to shim to allow adjustment.  My saddles are near top of height, buzz happens when I go lower with lots of saddle adjustment down remaining.

 

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18 answers to this question

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Have you tried taking out or adding some relief to the neck? Depending on where you're buzzing and fretting out, your neck may be too straight, or have too much relief in it.

If you're buzzing and fretting out on the lower and mid frets, your neck is too straight. If it is buzzing or fretting out as you move up the neck past the twelfth fret, you may have too much relief in it. If you still have the problem with proper neck relief, you probably have a fret issue.

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Thanks. I have about 0.010” relief at the 7th fret. The buzzing and fretting out is around the 12th fret and higher. Easy to loosen the truss rod see but sounds like frets from what you are saying. 
 

Action measured at 12th fret is 4/64, no capo on first fret (G&L method) and 4/64 at 17th fret with capo on first fret (Fender method). Can’t go lower without starting to fret out on the higher frets, high E string.

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With that string height and relief, it sounds like a high fret. If you're not comfortable enough working on it, you could take some relief out down to .005 with that string height, and you may be able to play ok unless there's too much string rattle on low frets when it's that straight. At least that way you could play it until you have the offending fret brought down. 

If your curious as to exactly where the problem is, grab a fret rocker from StewMac or Allparts. They're cheap and it will help you find the problem right away. Who  knows, perhaps you'll even be inspired to work on it yourself once you find it???

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5 minutes ago, BoogieMKIIA said:

a bit iffy to take a file to the frets.

If it's a high fret, you'll just take it down with sandpaper. There's a process, but if you're careful you can do it. There are some good videos for instruction you can learn from.

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The order is relief, nut slots, saddles height, intonation. Shim insertion or removal comes into play when you run out of an adjustment range. What you describe sounds like excessive relief. That .010 to which you refer, if you're taking it with the guitar flat on a table, will grow when you turn the guitar vertical into playing position due to gravity's effect (its shift actually) on the neck. And you'll start getting noise in the higher register. I set a neck almost perfectly straight using a notched straightedge on the fingerboard itself, not the frets, with the guitar flat on its back. The shift in gravity forms the relief when the guitar moves to playing position. But that's just my way.

BE VERY CAREFUL if you attempt your own fretwork. I fix botched DIY fretwork very frequently. Watch EVERY video you can find and look for common denominators in both techniques and tools. Most of the tools I use even just to dress existing frets cannot be sourced at Home Depot or Lowe's. I encourage you to not improvise. I also encourage you to get at least two cheap beaters off a pawn shop wall and do their frets first. You will get valuable reps and experience, and even if you destroy them you'll be learning what "not" to do the next time.

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2 hours ago, Jeff R said:

The order is relief, nut slots, saddles height, intonation. Shim insertion or removal comes into play when you run out of an adjustment range. What you describe sounds like excessive relief. That .010 to which you refer, if you're taking it with the guitar flat on a table, will grow when you turn the guitar vertical into playing position due to gravity's effect (its shift actually) on the neck. And you'll start getting noise in the higher register. I set a neck almost perfectly straight using a notched straightedge on the fingerboard itself, not the frets, with the guitar flat on its back. The shift in gravity forms the relief when the guitar moves to playing position. But that's just my way.

BE VERY CAREFUL if you attempt your own fretwork. I fix botched DIY fretwork very frequently. Watch EVERY video you can find and look for common denominators in both techniques and tools. Most of the tools I use even just to dress existing frets cannot be sourced at Home Depot or Lowe's. I encourage you to not improvise. I also encourage you to get at least two cheap beaters off a pawn shop wall and do their frets first. You will get valuable reps and experience, and even if you destroy them you'll be learning what "not" to do the next time.

I adjust relief with the guitar on my leg as if I were playing it. Checked it flat and did not see much difference. I measured string to fret and use feeler gauges, what I am able to do. Tightened the truss rod to flatten and things got worse so I loosened it to improve. Raised high E saddle a little. I have no tools or experience to mess with the nut, which is not in play up the neck or with the capo on the 1st fret. Seems relief is more on the bass side, less on the treble side.

I ordered a fret rocker and radius gauges, maybe I can learn something about the frets and my saddle setup.

I am lucky to have RS Guitarworks nearby. Still will play around on my own, non-destructively, a bit longer. Then a trip to Winchester if I get nowhere. 

 

 

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Fret rocker will be of great benefit in your diagnosis. Crossing the big pond in container ships is tough on imports, the changes in temp and humidity creates fret sprout outwards and/or upwards. You likely have a few poorly seated frets from the journey around the globe. Just one bum fret can ruin your setup. Good call on that.

I only use radius gauges is when I'm fretting or refretting something, during board prep if that's needed. I never use them during setups, using a rule for action gets me what I need. But a lotta guys use them so good buy.

Your next tool purchase is a notched straightedge. It is in my top 5 for gotta-have tools, mine (one for common guitar scales, one for common bass scales) are used on EVERY guitar that enters my shop. My set-ups went from good to great with that one tool. Frets wear unevenly, particularly in the middle of the neck. Frets can be poorly dressed (if at all) at import factories. I want my relief measurement off the board, you cannot get as good a reading off frets unless they are unworn and were done superbly to start with. I cannot emphasize how vital a notched straightedge is for superior results. Don't get a cheap one - splurge and get a nice one from a luthiery supply. It will remain true and worth its weight in moon rock forever.

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22 minutes ago, BoogieMKIIA said:

I have no tools or experience to mess with the nut, 

To raise the string off the nut, I've used another "short piece of string temporarily" in the groove just to raise the playing String to see if that's the problem... Normally the string is high enough if it isn't buzzing on the first fret,

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I don’t hear buzzing at the nut when the sting is open and the distance of the open string to the fret or fingerboard is not short.

Posting a pic that was the original reason for the question. While the action is not low, it is certainly not high and the saddle height adjustment screws are near the top of their travel. If the neck angle increased slightly, I could lower the saddles to get the the 12th or 17th fret height I am now. The string could come off the fret at a larger angle and have more space to vibrate. 

7567EEF1-A28D-4E10-8C5B-5DAE18978D20.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, Dave Scepter said:

To raise the string off the nut, I've used another "short piece of string temporarily" in the groove just to raise the playing String to see if that's the problem... Normally the string is high enough if it isn't buzzing on the first fret,

An easier way would be to capo the first fret. If the buzzing goes away you have a low nut slot - provided the neck relief is correct.

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28 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said:

An easier way would be to capo the first fret. If the buzzing goes away you have a low nut slot - provided the neck relief is correct.

I capoed the first fret to check relief and action, the buzzing remained.

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12 minutes ago, BoogieMKIIA said:

I capoed the first fret to check relief and action, the buzzing remained.

I'm sure it did, based on what you told me it sounds like a high or low fret issue like I said before. I was referring to what Dave was talking about specifically nut slots 😉

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since you have the bridge saddles at max, you could experiment with sandpaper or wood veneer shims to see if they get near your desire of a setup since its a bolt on neck.

just loosen and capo the strings at first fret and have your way with it :)

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5 hours ago, murkat said:

since you have the bridge saddles at max, you could experiment with sandpaper or wood veneer shims to see if they get near your desire of a setup since its a bolt on neck.

just loosen and capo the strings at first fret and have your way with it :)

Would be simple and non-destructive. Even if I take it to the shop in the end, will have learned more about setups and how to find issues. With the good deal I got, the cost for professional work is even more worth it. The guitar really sounds great.

Thanks to all for the ideas.

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If you do have to shim, what Murkat said about sandpaper.  It was necessary on my Frankenstrat when I built it.  A folded over bit of 600 grit sandpaper did the trick.  The paper is already compressed and the grit gives is a little grab on the wood to keep things from shifting.

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I unbolted the neck Sunday to shim. Found thick finish at all 4 corners and one with a piece of tape. Removed the excess finish carefully with an X-acto knife and put it back together since it was getting late. About the same as before. If I adjust the high E saddle at 5/64 or above it is sort of OK.

Fret rocker and radius gauges will arrive this week. If all looks OK I will shim and see. Suspecting I may have several uneven frets. If so, to the shop and let a pro take care of it. Will still be a good deal overall and I think the tone is great.

one other issue is static on the pick guard. Dryer sheet took care of it for the evening but it returned. Will shield the under side. Popped the control plate up and that cavity has shielding paint. 

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Just dropped the G&L ASAT Tribute off at RS Guitarworks. Needs some nut work and then a general setup (yes, I had messed with saddle heights). Then will see if the frets I “rocked” are really out. A complete fret level gets expensive relative to the price of the guitar so hoping the minor work will get it done.

Played a pine Slab Whiteguard while there, wow!  Certainly no comparison.  I don’t have the cash to swing one of their builds at the moment. Need to start a slush fund. They do good work so I’m confident they will get my SDOTD in its best shape.

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