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'60s progenitors of "Hard Rock" and "Heavy Metal"---Let's get subjective again!


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On 9/8/2022 at 2:26 PM, tommy p said:

I don't think their material with Ozzy holds up at all; it's horribly dated IMO.  Whenever I hear an Ozzy era Sabbath song on Ozzy's Boneyard on Sirius, I can't get to the radio to change the station fast enough.  I know I'm in the minority with that opinion, but I never thought the music was very good and the lyrics were often terrible and had clunky phrasing.  I still say the best thing they ever did was part ways.  Ozzy was much better out of Sabbath, and Sabbath was much better with everybody but Ozzy.  

 

I think Sabs is timeless. Maiden, Crue, and a lot of 80s stuff (even 80s Priest like 'Law, 'Nuther Thing Coming, Defenders, etc) sound really dated to my ear (although I do like those records). All the 80s hair band stuff and operatic vocals (Queensryche!) is worse and I can't take them at all anymore (ok, Unleashed in the East gets a pass!). As always, YMMV...

But I think I know what you're feeling w/ the Sabs clunky phrasing comment; the 1st 4 Sabs albums have a somewhat ham-fisted garage band vibe (everything except maybe Geezers basslines). It wasn't until Sabbath Bloody Sabbath that their productions started to feel like they weren't completely rushed, and it was the Dio era albums w/ Martin Birch that really sounded as good as your typical Van Halen and Rush records. But the raw early sound really endears them to me, and the eerie vibe of Ozzys vocals and Iommis riffs never gets old to my ear.

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4 hours ago, Brooks said:

 

I think Sabs is timeless. Maiden, Crue, and a lot of 80s stuff (even 80s Priest like 'Law, 'Nuther Thing Coming, Defenders, etc) sound really dated to my ear (although I do like those records). All the 80s hair band stuff and operatic vocals (Queensryche!) is worse and I can't take them at all anymore (ok, Unleashed in the East gets a pass!). As always, YMMV...

But I think I know what you're feeling w/ the Sabs clunky phrasing comment; the 1st 4 Sabs albums have a somewhat ham-fisted garage band vibe (everything except maybe Geezers basslines). It wasn't until Sabbath Bloody Sabbath that their productions started to feel like they weren't completely rushed, and it was the Dio era albums w/ Martin Birch that really sounded as good as your typical Van Halen and Rush records. But the raw early sound really endears them to me, and the eerie vibe of Ozzys vocals and Iommis riffs never gets old to my ear.

I'm the exact opposite...well, on some of the bands you mentioned.  All the early Maiden, Priest from Hell Bent for Leather up, and Queensryche all still sound fine to me.  Never liked Crue and still don't.  I actually do like some of Mick Mars' playing and I will give his solo album a shot if it ever comes out.  Vince Neil is the bane of my ears' existence which might have something to do with it.  That voice is nails on a chalkboard for me.

And you are correct - I think Geezer could and still can play his ass off but that "all over the place" style on bass is not for me in hard rock or metal music (usually).  He probably could have been a great jazzer.  To think the rest of them thought he wrote the best lyrics and THAT'S what they ended up with?  Yikes!  I don't really care for Bill Ward's style either.  Again, too all over the place for me.  BTW, I f'ing LOVE Born Again so everybody can hate on me all they want for that!

I'm glad at least one person kind of understood my criticisms even if we still disagree.  I love having intelligent musical discussions.  I realized long ago that people often revere whatever bands they first listened to when they discovered music and were developing their own taste.  Ozzy-era Sabs, Hendrix, and Kiss are all bands I could not care less about but I'm sure plenty of the stuff I like is razz-worthy to many.

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I don't understand putting bands in a category and thinking that is the end all be all.  Albums?  Yes, most certainly!   But bands can change.  The albums don't.  (other than re-releases with added tracks etc.

 

 

Edited by mathman
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In keeping with the OP’s topic of 60’s progenitors of hard rock, I do think a case can be made for the Jeff Beck Group album “Truth”.

Specifically Beck’ s Bolero, Shapes of Things, and Let Me Love You.  Heavy guitar into Marshall amps… Bolero excepted as it was into an AC30.

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