Direct Schaller tuner replacements

[nervous]

This may have already been done and I apologize for digging it up if it has but my searching has not found the answer.

My Monaco Elite has standard Schaller M6 tuners. I have also installed these on nearly every electric I have ever owned so really have never had any other experience until I had my Newport which came with some sort of Grover Super Rotomatics. I had never paid any attention to different ratios but with their higher 14:1 ratios the Grovers were noticeably nicer to use and finer in their tuning ability than what I believe is the 12:1 Schallers.

So I am thinking about trying a different set of tuners on the Monaco with a higher ratio but would like to know if anyone knows of an exact fit set from other vendors that would not require me to re-drill the backside mounting screws which I wouldn't do. Any thoughts on tuner ratios in general and how they effect tuning? Is there a cross-reference chart anywhere? And these are not locking tuners nor would I need locking tuners.

Thanks

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

I replaced the tuners on my Newport with Grovers. They are the same dimensions as Schaller M6. On StewMac.com you can see some pretty detailed measurements to assure yourself that your replacements will fit.

There seem to be three basic configurations with respect to the little screw on the back. One is with the screw centered, the other is off to the corner, and the third is with no screw at all. Find your configuration and double check the dimensions. I bet that either Schaller or Grover makes a tuner that fits perfectly.

The new tuners on my Newport are 18:1 and locking. I love the locking feature, btw, even if it may not be your cup of tea. 18:1 is pretty nice, and I recommend it. There's no real downside that I can think of, especially with the locking feature which means that you only have a half to a whole turn of string on the post, rather than 3 or 4 with a non-locking tuner.

[nervous]

Good info. Do you recall what Grover tuner model you used? Not so concerned by the hole drilling on the headstock because on the Monaco these would be intended for have the standard Schaller M6 tuners and not the Imperial style like the Grover Supers.

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

I put on the Grover locking Rotomatic tuners. Note that the Schaller M6 come in two configurations. The standard M6 has the screw offset, whereas the M6 Vintage have the screw centered. My tuners were the centered configuration and I could not find a USA seller of the M6 Vintage.

Here are the new locking Rotomatics.

Note where the screw is and compare it to the pictures on Schaller's website. Schaller's M6 page

[nervous]

Note where the screw is and compare it to the pictures on Schaller's website.

Yup. I have that and that's probably the biggest fitment hurdle is getting a replacement with the exact alignment

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

You could go with the screwless design. It has a hidden pin under the machine that fits into a tiny hole that you probably should drill. The original screw hole would be visible with the screwless design, but all you have to do is put the original machines on there when it's time to sell the guitar. The pin hole that you drill would always be covered by whatever machine you put on. These are the Schaller Locking machines from the Stewmac site.

[nervous]

You could go with the screwless design. It has a hidden pin under the machine that fits into a tiny hole that you probably should drill. The original screw hole would be visible with the screwless design, but all you have to do is put the original machines on there when it's time to sell the guitar. The pin hole that you drill would always be covered by whatever machine you put on. These are the Schaller Locking machines from the Stewmac site.

This is a good thought and I am considering it. I could also put the small screws back into the holes to keep them filled.

Thanks.

[GaryT]

Schaller makes an excellent Kidney shaped Tuner that Hamer used on their Korinas and many others. I believe they work a little smoother than the higher ratio 18:1 Super Rotomatics by Schaller which came stock on my Newports. I'm not sure what the ratio is on the Kidney style Schallers, I would think 14:1 though. Definatly a lower Ratio, but they are very smooth. Nicest Schallers I've used for sure. And thats a direct replacement.

Grovers 18:1 Kidney shaped come in the offset and straight back design as mention. They also come in 18:1 ratio and are Good. The ones you see come stock on Gibsons though are 14:1 and they are OK for a couple years but they go. The 18:1 are the ticket IMO. The ones I have used on Hamers were also Nickle. So I changed the Stop Tail etc over.

Thats the reason I'm mentioning Schaller. Anyway thats the experience I've had with the few I've changed around.

As we speak I'm getting ready to take the Super Rotomatins OFF my maple-top Newport and swap them for the Kidney Shaped Schallers on my Artist. I like the Kidneys on my Artisy and the smoothness of them though they are NOT as HIGH a Ratio. I still prefer them on the NEWPORT for that Look and Smoothness. Just my preference is all.

[nervous]

What is the feeling on Gotoh 510's, Med sized or Delta 21:1 tuners on an electric? I am reading good things and they just might fit the M6 locations. I might have to be the lab rat for this application.

[GaryT]

Gotohs have a wider set of pins than Schaller [though from a photo they LOOK the same]. You'll need to drill a set of holes. That said I like the Gotoh hardware I've used. Though I haven't fooled with their products in the past 12-18ths. They may make a conversion TM now for Schaller? I always wondered why they were a slightly wider pin set than a few others like Schaller.

The pins on the locking Schallers above are very similiar to Sperzels. First time I've seen those and I just added a new set of Schaller/Fender F-Stamped Locking TMs on a Strat.

[nervous]

Well, things are not looking up for a drop in replacement. I received this response from StewMac today:

"None of the tuners we sell will fit the mounting screw spacing. The Gotoh 510 or sealed back tuners would have higher gear ratios and will fit the peghole, jut not the mounting screw hole."

And they have a lot to choose from....

[GaryT]

Are you having a problem finding the 14:1 ratio Chrome GROVERS? Why not try Guitarfetish. They "do-not" have the higher ratio 18:1 Grovers. But they do have the 14:1 Grovers like I'm assuming your looking for. They are pretty inexpenisve there also.

The set is $21.00 dollars. This is what your looking for? They come in Gold, Chrome and Black. They just don't come in Nickle like I mentioned above. Pretty sure you have to go 18:1 for the Nickle. But you want Chrome anyway, No? BTW they carry the Grover Imperial with the 16:1 ratio and the wood screw directly behind like the Grovers in this post. They are only a couple bucks higher. I haven't used any of these from "guitafetish" so I can't really comment on their quailty? I've used the 14:1 Grovers and prefer the 18:1 as I mentioned though. The 18:1s will last a lifetime. The 14:1s are problem prone after a few years IMHO.

[nervous]

Are you having a problem finding the 14:1 ratio Chrome GROVERS? Why not try Guitarfetish. They "do-not" have the higher ratio 18:1 Grovers. But they do have the 14:1 Grovers like I'm assuming your looking for. They are pretty inexpenisve there also.

http://store.guitarfetish.com/fusigrch3x3t.html

The set is $21.00 dollars. This is what your looking for? They come in Gold, Chrome and Black. They just don't come in Nickle like I mentioned above. Pretty sure you have to go 18:1 for the Nickle. But you want Chrome anyway, No? BTW they carry the Grover Imperial with the 16:1 ratio and the wood screw directly behind like the Grovers in this post. They are only a couple bucks higher. I haven't used any of these from "guitafetish" so I can't really comment on their quailty? I've used the 14:1 Grovers and prefer the 18:1 as I mentioned though. The 18:1s will last a lifetime. The 14:1s are problem prone after a few years IMHO.

What I am specifically trying to find is a drop in replacement for the regular sized Schaller M6 (not the mini) from any vendor with a higher ratio where no modifications will be required, i.e. reaming holes, adding holes, etc. They have the backside screw that is offset to the right or left side. The Grovers have the bottom center backside hole and because I really do not want to redrill that hole or add holes to the headstock. On the other TM's with the offset holes I am hearing thet they will not align exactly, leaving the same problem of having to re-drill. So, until someone can recommend an exact fit TM for this application I have to continue the search. I am still weighing the locking Schallers with the hidden pin and no external screw. Thanks.