jdrnd

Abaco, I feel for you. My son is a freshman in high school. He wanted to tryout for the freshman Soccer team (he's played recreational soccer since he was 6). To prepare, he attends a soccer camp in the first week of August, a fitness camp in the second week of August (both run by the HS Soccer coach) and tryouts for the team in the third week. He doesn't make the team. All the players that made it, had been playing on the Travel (competitive) Soccer team of our town for the past 3 years (the HS Soccer coach is the asst coach on the travel team). These players made it despite the fact that many of the players did poorly in the formal tryouts. What my son learned was that the tryouts had been going on for the past 3 years. The "official tryouts" (analagous to your "signup sheet") had to occur for political reasons. After all there could have been a spectacular player not known to the coach (who by the way has his fingers in all things Soccer in our area) that blew everyone away and just by sheer ability made the team. It was a good lesson for my son. Now he can concentrate on having fun just playing recreational soccer. In some ways, your story reminded me of what just happened to him. Jeff

If I'm going to spend $2000 for a guitar I assume that those pickups are matched to that body. I'm not going to touch it. But I am thinking of buying a used Sunburst archtop and swapping pickups on it to see what sounds I can make (if my wife lets me spend a few more hundred on guitars and things). ...wistfully objective data would be useful.

Just Kidding! Jeff

I was really ready to let this thread die.... ...and then I find it in the top 25 again. Since Tobereeno saw fit to resurrect this thread I feel obligated to restate my case in long drawn out incredibly detailed redundant paragraphs. So here goes...

okay, so Mike means that the fretwire is polished. If thats the case then that would affect intonation.

Mile, "The one thing that is almost universal is the quality of the fretwork. Properly crowned and polished frets will intonate and play better than roughly finished frets. This is one place where Hamer consistently eclipses Gibson. If you want, we could measure the surface finish of the frets with a profilometer, but all you have to do is bend a string or two and add a little vibrato to see for yourself. We can also judge quality based on semi-objective measures - overall fit and finish, fit of the binding, finish bleed on binding, excess glue at joints, amount of filler around the inlays, neatness of wiring and soldering. These are the things we talk about when we say a Hamer is built better than a Gibson, and for the most part, these things are consistently better on Hamers. Before I owned a Hamer I tried to buy a Gibson and was disgusted at the poor quality of workmanship for the price asked. Hamer was better and less expensive. And this is based on someone who was biased in favor of Gibson to start out with. " Do you mean fret bars or frets. The fret bars on Hamers (at least my Hamer), are high, so if I press the string to the fret surface I bend the string out of tune. In fact that was what I was doing when I brought my guitar home. It took a while to lighten my grip (my acoustic had 012 strings). Since one doesn't push the string to the fret surface, how would polished frets affect intonation? Jeff

If I hadn't taken a wrong turn in my first year of college and switched majors from Music to science, I would be a rockstar. You would all be talking about which guitar, pickups, amps, and settings to use to emulate my playing. Luthiers would be sneaking in to my dressing room dropping guitars off for me to try so they could obtain testimonials from me; and now that I can afford to buy a good instrument and spend some time playing, its too late. I don't know what I was thinking when I decided to become a scientist. Life is definitely not fair.

Matt, I agree that there are thousands of variables. The year is 2006. We have computers. ...is there really such a thing as GC goober? or is your example equivalent to a SRP Ratpus limited edition? (Sometimes I can't tell when you guys are goofing on me or not; the learning curve for guitar-speak is steep) Jeff

Jonathan, You have given me the most reasonable explanations for the beauty of subjectitvity and why it counts most in guitars, guitar playing, and for that matter, music in general. There is little that you say that I disagree with. But on top of what you say imagine the degree of sophistication and complexity that this discussion would have if one could decribe the objective characteristics of each instrument and amplifier that contribute to the subjective experience that you (and almost everyone else) describes. Jeff

MTM105 What did the elephant sat to the naked man? (answer below) Mike, I'm a Neurologist... (I also have a PhD in Biology (neuroscience) which I obtained prior to medical school). What do you do? Jonathan, What do you mean by "funky vibe"? If someone said to me, buy this guitar because it has funky vibes, how could I evaluate what that means. If someone said buy this guitar because 1. it has interesting overtones in the lower registers, 2. that person produced some sought of printout, and 3. the waveform of the printout correlated to a particular sound that I could recognize, I could at least get an idea of what that person means. Its the type of indistinctness that I came across when I was guitar shopping that drove me crazy. (I admit that it sounds like I'm driving everyone else crazy with my crusade to standardize guitar descriptions, but everyone would benefit). I don't understand why there's so much resistance. Knowledge is power. Answer: "Its cute but can you beathe through it?" Jeff

JohnnyB Hi dose Valium is better.

sw686blue, I'm having fun! I really enjoyed Mike's comments. I'm technically inclined. I I don't think your rude at all, my wife is a lot more nasty towards me when I get carried away, She would have used alot more colorful language than you did. I am sorry that your not finding this interesting. By the way, just to show no hard feelings let me add a joke: Why do rabbits do it Quietly? (answer at bottom) "Go tell Hamer, McNaught, Thorn, Driskill, Koll, Heatley, Baker, Robin, PRS, McInturff, etc that they are not interested in developping a better guitar and let me know what their reply is." Its one thing to say your developing guitars, its another to actually do it. I would be interested in seeing axactly how much technolpgy is actually used by these companies to develop guitars. To Mike: I've even plugged a guitar into a computer running a spectrum analyzer with a waterfall plot. I was able to see in real time the frequency cancellation that occurs when pickups are mixed together, especially the neck/middle combo on a Strat. It was neat, but it doesn't explain why I like that sound so much, and some other people don't. Where can I get a spectrum analyzer. Are there any computer programs that function as one. Is there really something called a waterfall plot? and I am happy with my AK P-90. Answer They have cotton balls! Jeff

Jonathan, You basically made my argument. The $120 Dean Tonic probably sounds better then the Hamer 30th Ann LTD because it is better. Objective measurments of playing characteristics would probably support your subjective findings. The 30th anniversary model is a marketing ploy. Like the 50th anniversary of Disneyland, the limited edition Ford (not fender) Mustang with the fancy fins. Disneyland or the Ford Mustang are not any better because 50 years have passed or the car has fins, their just marketed these things to generate excitement and thus more sales. The fact that Hamer allows a connection between the HFC and its web site is for marketing purposes. The HFC is doing Hamer a favor (I think I may have gotten myself in trouble with this last statement... should I leave it in and risk getting ostracized, I guess we'll all found out after I press the "Add Reply" button). I realized after going through this thread that my perspective is different than the 30 or so people that commented. The AK P-90 that I bought a few months ago, is now my good guitar. I'm not going to buy another one (despite my bravado). I have limited experience playing the width and breadth of guitars that many people in this forum have played. During my buying adventures, every "experienced" person that I asked advice from about which guitar to buy had a different opinion. The reason that the suggestion that "I buy the guitar that sounds best for me" is silly, is in the store they all sounded great. Remember I was coming from what was considered, in its day, to be a student guitar (Fender Mustang) and Compared to the AK P-90 it clearly is... even if the mustang twang is crystal clear. I wanted to buy a professional guitar that I wouldn't outgrow. With objective data I might have elected to buy a non USA Hamer, or a high end Ibanez. I don't have the time to go to every store and try out every guitar. 224 guitars, wow. and according to darc thats nothing! I don't own or work in a music store, I haven't played a gig since 1968 when I was a senior in high school (Oops I giving a way my age), and my chances of becoming a rock star before I have my first stroke are less than being abducted by aliens. I just want to sit in my basement and play guitar and know I have a good instrument. Objective measurements of guitars would have given me a selection of guitars in a certain range. From their my subjective mode could have kicked in and I could pick the guitar that sounded best to me from that group. I wonder how many people are similar to me. That is they like to play, usually play by themselves or occasionaly in small informal groups, never played more than 7 guitars in their life, own 2 or 3 guitars ( their first one, a good one and a better one) and never evolve past that point. I aspire to be like those of you who play professionally, but its not going to happen. ...and lastly the guitar makers are never going to use engineering to make better instruments if they get the impression that those of us buying them, don't care, Or that we are easily susceptible to fancy marketing. Instead of improving the instrument, they'll take a guitar like the Artist Korina P-90, add a turtle inlay at the 12th fret and call it the Artist Special addition Turtle Anniversary model... a model that soundwise is no better than the standard Artist Korina P-90 but because of the hype it will be sold for $1000 more. Jeff

So Matt, You mean you check it out to see if it sounds and plays terrible. Then regardless, you ultimately make your decison based on: 1. The worse the cosmetic appearance the better. 2. The brand name on the headstock ...so epiphone, harmony over hamer or gibson 3. as many solder points that can be seen the better 4. How dorky you think it will make you look 5. How sure you are that it will make you sound like Brittany Spears??? I still think objective measurments would be useful. Wouldn't you like to know how good Britany Spears action is and the length of her sustain. Not to mention her frequency response at her open frets. Jeff

Okay I give up... For now I still like Myers Rum.

The logistics are mind boggling. Where do you keep them? How many do you play per day? How do feed them all? At an average cost $500/ guitar thats $112,000 worth of instruments (excluding amps, guitar stands, cables, other toys). At an average price of $1000/guitar thats $224,000 etc. WOW. I don't even have 200 pictures of guitars (wait a minute, let me count the number of pictures in the Hamer catalogue). Do you have a group shot? The number is too outrageous not to believe? Are you a guitar dealer? I stand corrected I'm 219 short. jeff

I prefer Myer's Rum. I know what your all going to say... "Where's the objective evidence that (myers rum) is better? and I'm going say "I don't care what the objective evidence says?" and everybody is going to chime in "Told you so!!!" but the "whats your favorite alcohol when your brain needs a rest" poll is a different thread. Whether you guys (or girls) goof on me or not for bringing this subject up I still think that if most people agreed that objective measurments of guitar would be helpful. Somebody would start to accumulate them. The surprising results would lead to changes not only in how people picked guitars, but in the price structure and quality of instruments. Gibson and other companies would have to obtain engineers to better measure their instruments. There would be improvements in all instruments. And upstart companies who are trying to make quality instruments would be recognized in a shorter period of time because they would have data to show rather than just testimonials from lesser known profesional guitarists. This would mean more good guitars to chose from and lower prices. If only this was the late 60s again. That was the time for revolution. "...I'm just pining for the fjords" (my apologees to Monty Python). and I'm running out of steam. Jeff

Jonathan, Nothing you or anyone else has said is mutually exclusive from what I am saying. Your comment below All the technical specs in the world for a guitar will just tell you how two guitars are different, not which one is better, because with guitars "better" is entirely in the ears, eyes and hands of the beholder. Of course this is true. But there are many guitars that are perceived to be similar with different prices which in reality may be equal. We are all influenced by hype. If you repeat a statement enough and all the people you surround yourself with repeat it you beleive it even if objective reality says otherwise. The HFC as do some dealers (but not others) promote the notion that Hamer guitars are close if not equal in Value to Gibson's but at a lower price. That is an opinion. What if its not true. What if you get put in a room (with your permission) and you get to listen to 20 guitars with the same amp and the same guitarist playing the same music and your asked to rate the guitars. In those 20 guitars would be a few Hamers a few Gibsons, a few PRSs, and a few guitars, that if named, all of us, due to our bias, would perceive as not so good. What if after hearing them in a blinded situation you could tell that one guitar sounded different than the other, but you couldn't give them a rating (in other words they all sounded of equal value). By the way blinding the test is key. You can't answer the question because such as test doesn't exist. When you go the dealer you know what your playing when your playing it. To develop this further. Perhaps if Guitars are studied by objective means and it might turn out that there is an optimum sustain which most experienced guitarists prefer, even from instrument to instrument. Or their is a particular overtone seen in guitars as varied as a PRS Santana to a Hamer studio, that attracts people. If we knew what these parameters are that we are attracted to, those guitars would be more sought after. Of course there is a subjective component, but maybe there is also an objective component. Arguing that there isn't an objective component is silly because it hasn't been studied. You can't provide the data to refute that last statement because the data doesn't exist. Somebody in this thread said that Gibson no longer uses engineers. They just live off of their reputation. Why should they spend the money for those engineers? After representatives of Gibson or other guitar companies read this thread and see that not a single person other than myself see's any value in objective measurements, of course there going to continue to do the same thing. If we want them to devlop better guitars based on technology we have to make some noise that its important to us.... Okay I'm spent. ...and rjoseph133 you still have more guitars than me even if its not 200. I believe you that you have 24. I actually have 5 in the house, I'm only 19 short of tying you. Jeff

“One can reasonably rest assured that the quality of a NEW guitar will reflect in its price...”…” A new Hamer will almost always be better than a new Gibson.”… Rjoseph133 Great statements! How do you prove it? “You certainly could scientifically quantify many properties of a guitar. You'd have to invent a rig that could always pick a string in the same place relative to the bridge with the same amount of force, and then you could measure the output from each pickup with the controls set at a certain position. You'd chart the Fourier analysis in 3-D to see how different frequencies sustain and decay over time.”Jwhitcomb Why not do it? "The nice thing about buying a guitar is that it isn't a terribly important decision. If you make a mistake and buy the wrong one for you, just sell it and find one you like better."Polara This was my behavior towards computers until I started looking at the stats. Of course now I build my own, using components for which I know their technical specs. And computers are only my hobby. Get a television. They're cheaper and more fun to look at. Hey jdrnd (aka jeff(: I'm about 8 miles from Daren's Music. We must be something like neighbors.Thundernotes We are! I’m 6 miles. Do you know Ron? And I’m looking at buying a Plasma TV AND I am Looking at the technical characteristics before I buy it. Why shouldn’t we check the same when we buy a guitar (answer: because they don’t exist). Take Note Polara; Buying a TV is also not a terribly important decision. “It all comes down to this - what do you want? You have to KNOW. What tone do you have in your mind? It seems to me you are way to willing to let a salesman do that for you. Salesmen push product. If they sell Fenders they are going to steer you to Fender. Even if you want a Gibson. If you have no idea what you want, they will thank God for sending you.”Hamerhokie I agree with this statement. I want the best guitar I can get, that sounds good to me. But I don’t want to spend more money because there is a perception that the particular guitar I’m buying kills everything else when in fact its no better than a competing guitar. I want all the facts! The salesman is going to give his opinion as well as Market me. How can I prevent myself from being overly influenced by him without the technical information “My bone stock 1995 PRS Custom 24 absolutely shames all of my other guitars; this includes comparing Gibson, Fender (both Gibson and Fender from the 1950's onward,) Hamer, Steinberger, etc. This isn't to say the aforementioned guitars are bad; quite the contrary, but...I got my 1995 PRS Custom 24 for $1650 in 1997.”Rjoseph133 Please do not take this personally, I am ripping apart your statement as an example of why I would like more objective criteria. I could have taken a lot of other peoples comments… but I picked yours. Your comment is a testimonial. Like this statement “I saw Godzilla and it was the greatest movie ever, you should see it too.” It’s my opinion as is The PRS comment your opinion. Okay So in what way does your PRS shame your other guitars? What do you mean by using the word ”shame”? 1. Do you mean “better than”, “mocks”… Shame is an indistinct word. 2. And if it is “better than”, in what way is it better? 3. Do you mean that the PRS has more volume, better overtones, better sustain, better action, better looks, better ish kabible? 4. And for every one of those criteria, by how much is it better 5. Its your opinion, why is your opinion worth more than someone else’s opinion who might have equal playing experience as you but has a different opinion? "Would you trust Consumer Reports to use their "objective criteria" to evaluate electric guitars and amps? The word "hamfisted" comes to mind."Johnny B Absolutely not!!! But I might trust a group of dedicated musicians who want to get to the truth and do not own any of the guitar companies “It's WESTERN NC that lacks BBQ, not North Carolina ”Polara I humbly apologize! Jeff

I'm back from a 6 mile hike up haystock mountain in franconia notch, NH. Beautiful day. Well thanks for all the advice. I didn't know that there was no good barbecue in North Carolina, but I might add, New Hampshire is probably worse. Peedenmark7's advice about buying as many guitars as I can is excellent advice. I will be telling my wife later about my plans. I understand about the butter, beer pizza and wool hat, but whats with the 2 lbs of nails? As usual Jonathans advice was reasonable and diplomatic. "I have over 200 guitars and basses." says rjoseph133. I say "How many over?" No matter what the number I'm gonna have more by tommorrow. Just let me know... but I did appreciate your take on my comments. If I switched to a bass, I would be having this same thread about basses. I didn't know you could take your own amplifier to a store when buying a guitar, If I can I will for my next buy (which won't be for a while if I want to stay married) I appreciate Polara, thundernotes and Hamerhokie, and other peoples as well comments. All I'm saying is the more in formation we have the better our decisions. And when I bought this guitar I did not know whose advice was sound and whose was not. I bet that if the information did exist it would be used. All of us would be discussing the data, in addition to our subjective opinions. We tend to surround ourselves with like thinking people so we think alike. But in addition to this what's wrong with objective data? Jeff

I realize that there is a subjective component to appreciating a particular guitar, but there is also an objective peice that is currently not given enough attention. That Les Paul vs Telecaster experiment is what I'm talking about. Its a qualitative experiment but not quantitative. But its not exactly the experiment I was thinking of. Most guitarists, with experience, that I sought advice from felt that particular Hamer Instruments are as good as Gibson instruments. This is based on their subjective experience. I'm suggesting a real world comparison with objective values. Maybe Gibson is really better... or not. But one doesn't really know untill parameters are measured. These same type of measurements are being applied to cars, appliances, stereos, and even medicine. Why not guitars? I have always felt that the more information one has about any "thing", situation, procedure, the better able one is to make a reasonable decision. Objective data would be useful when i buy my next guitar. Since I can't try every model, the existance of data for sustain, action pressure, tonal overtone, etc for all the models I mentioned above (and others such as PRS, GL, Campbell, whatever) would make it easier for me to narrow the list. What if a PRS santana III has the same parameters as a (I'll pick one out of the air) an Epiphone LP. Of course the marketing perception is that the first kills the second. I say: "Prove it". Lets see the data. A similar comparison could be made for the Hamer Artist ultimate vs Gibson LP super deluxe ultimate special edition with a cherry on top. These comparisons are now made being made in every area of industry, why not the music equipment industry. As for my experience with my AK P-90, I'm not as unhappy with it as you may think. The tuning problem was due to my pressing too hard, going from string gauge of 012 to 010, and having my thumb in the wrong place (for years). I ate craw and took one lesson and the bending was corrected. I also changed the strings to 011 and had the action lowered. I didn't appreciate P-90s because I was comparing them to single coils, and acoustic pick-ups. I play the AK every day. Since, buying it, I've made a trip to the Guitar Center. Interesting store. There are amps all over the place. I see a $1500 Gibson les paul on a stand and I asked the sales person if I can try it. So he hands me a cable and I sit down, plug in and play. I also tried a Fender strat, and a Gibson SG. No one said anything to me. After an hour I figured I better leave before I over stay my welcome (if you could call it that). So I turned in my cable and walked out the store. The guy at the cash register didn't even ask me what i thought of the instrument. Playing these instruments after having played the AK for 2 months gave me a different perspective then my impulsive buy of the Hamer when I had no experience (other then an acoustic and Mustang). These guitars were good, but they were different. The tone of the Strat was the clearest and the LP humbucker (I didn't ask which model humbucker) was OK, but I think I like the sound of My AK P-90 better than that of the LP. It would have been nice if I could have played them back to back. The learning experience of buying the AK P-90 was worth the money. And this forum is worth its weight in gold. I learned about string tension, pickups, woods and how they change effect tone, and the resale value of various models. Most of what I learned came from this forum..... But quantifiable numbers would also be helpful and that data doesn't exist in a way that guitars can be compared. Jeff

Badgerdave, Clearly one cannot compare humbuckers to P-90s. But one can compare humbuckers to humbuckers, P-90s to P-90s, 24 fret guitars to 24 fret guitars, etc. And for closely matched guitars that sound similar, if the price difference was significant (like more than $1000), but objective specs were equal, you would have objective criteria not to "buy the expensive jewelry" and opt for the less expensive instrument. Over time if more people bought guitars with their head and not their heart, the price of these jewels would come down since it would be apparent that they are no better than their less expensive rivals. I agree with you there are some of us who will always go for the perceived jewels. Marketing is designed to create this need. I have to confess I bought those "Pet Rocks" in the 1970's. I lost the box it came in but I still have the rock. By the way since I mostly play the Artist Korina p-90. My single coil mustang sounds like a toy when I play it (and the SC hum drives me crazy). In other words the P-90 has grown on me. I keep trying unsuccessfully to sound like Def lepard's "too late for love". But thats a story for another thread in the future. You mentioned that ..."Every guitar player with a few years of experience learns that a Les Paul has easier action and longer sustain than a Telecaster." Just by you and other guitarists mentioning it over and over it becomes fact. So why not actually measure the action pressure. Maybe its not true, its just we all believe its true because its repeated so many times. Jeff

Atquinn, Since we probably agree on more things than we disagree on, by what means other than objective evaluations would you propose to explode the promoted idea that there are dramatic differences between certain guitars? As I was reviewing this thread the thought popped into my mind that even if this premise is true (which is something we both suspect), there may be some people in the industry who would oppose exposing this notion since it might depress overall guitar prices. By the way is the your big three Fender-Gibson-Gretsch, or Fender-Gibson-PRS Jeff

Atquinn, Some of my comments stem from my adventures in buying my guitar, but some are triggered by some of the polls on this and other forums that ask whats your favorite shredder, or hamer. or whats the "best" gibson. The polls are very entertaining (I always take part...when I can) but they are not representative of a diverse enough group to have any meaning. I believe that there is an objective reality independent of the observer. And the clearest way to find the BEST guitar is to test it objectively, not take a poll. We all get influenced by the people we surround ourselves with. And none of us are immune to marketing. I just want to eliminate the marketing that companies do to push their product. Objective data would help to a certain extent. I agree with all you have said. Our arguments are not mutually exclusive. I just want to include more data in the guitar buying decision. There is no obligation on anybodies part to utilize this information, but I bet the existence of the information would lower the cost of guitars in general because I don't feel the difference between guitars is as great as we're led to believe. jeff

Atquinn, None of the above items objectively describe how the instrument sounds. Its assumed that some of the measurements that you listed have some association with the quality. But there are no objective measurements that they do. None that I could locate on the internet. Even though I am not using the guitar to make money, I would like to get my money's worth. Why would I spend $2000 for a guitar when (after eliminating the hype) a $1000 guitar has the same sound. Jeff