True high end audio performance in an affordable integrated amplifier

[JohnnyB]

A couple of months ago I stepped into a pretty nice audio store to kill some time. There was a setup featuring a gorgeous pair of Italian-made speakers that I'd always wanted to hear: the Sonus Faber Cremona M.



The turntable wasn't hooked up, so the sales rep cued up a very familiar Diana Krall CD. Wow! I could hear the recording venue ambience, the subtle details of how Diana forms her notes, slight creaking of the piano and piano bench, and easy delineation of natural and induced reverb. In spite of that level of detail, the presentation did not sound deconstructed; it sounded more "in-the-room" and musically engaging. In addition to the ambient detail, these speakers wowed me with their clear and nimble bass. The standard, "All or Nothing at All," opens with a fast acoustic bass intro by Christian McBride. These speakers handled that passage with the full bloom of the bass, but with no muddines or overhanging notes whatsoever. Again, Christian McBride was in the room. That audition haunted me for days. Weeks even. I'd love to have a pair of these speakers and I' know they'd be keepers for life. One obstacle though: list price is $12,500 per pair.

Usually when a high end store sets up some game-changing and fairly expensive speakers like this, they use really high end electronics and cabling to show them off--a $5-10K turntable, $3K preamp (or more), amplification in the $5-10K range, $1500 for the equipment rack and $2K for the cabiling.

They did have a nice rack and decent cables, but the CD/SACD player and integrated amp were a mid-line product bundle from Marantz. On its own the integrated amp lists at $999 but can be had as low as $699 if you know where to shop for a factory refreshed unit.




It was the electronics combo that made this happen. Not many of you out there may be up for the matching $999 SA8004 SACD/CD player, though it was the source component making this happen. Not only does it play both CDs and SACDs, you can use its internal (and very good) DAC to decode digital music via Toslink, S/PDiF coaxial, and USB. Yes, it can decode computer-based digital music.

But back to the amp. This amp, rated at a mid-level 70 wpc, took ahold of these $12.5K floorstanders with dual woofers and dual ports (a challenge for current delivery and an effective damping factor) and brought out a stunning performance, rich in harmonic fullness, intimate detail, and dynamics, both subtle and dramatic. It's not the kind of performance you expect from a <$1K amp.

I'm not alone in my reaction. The Absolute Sound, which is often accused of reviewing too much too-expensive gear, came to the same conclusion, giving this an Editor's Choice award and validating my impression that this amp is something special.

What makes it better? A couple of things, both of which show passion and care on the part of the designers and manufacturer. Where other integrated amps use mostly ICs and string them together, this amp uses specially designed circuits made of discrete components for certain parts of the design, including the phono preamp section. Highly unusual. Second is a circuit exclusive to Marantz called the HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module). This module inserts 70dB of extremely wide bandwidth, low noise gain into the gain circuit. By wide bandwidth this amp is near linear out to 100 KHz. Can't hear that high? No matter. That wide bandwidth also translates into a rise time that's about 5 times as fast as an amp that's linear only out to 20 KHz (the widely accepted upper limit of human hearing). And you can hear that rise time difference in the way it translates into presence, transparency, immediacy, and especially clarity.

Furthermore--and this is what I think sets this amp apart--this amp has an unusually high signal-to-noise ratio. In the amplifier section the s/n is 125 dB. Up to now that has been the exclusive province of five figure and above amps. The line stage is good for 106 dB. The amp is also capable of putting out a decent amount of current--25 amps--very quickly, and that has a lot to do with keeping firm control of the speakers' fluctuating impedance curve.

OK. So $999 seems like a lot for an integrated amp. Google for it and you can find it cheaper. Go to accessories4less.com to get a factory refurb unit for $699.

Also, to put this into perspective, back in the '70s in the "golden age of stereo," a good 40 wpc receiver went for around $400, or $2000 in today's money. By that standard, $999 today would be like getting the amp in 1972 for $190, with double the power and near double the s/n ratio. Back then you couldn't buy this Marantz's performance for any price. Few had this bandwidth, none of the SS models had this combination of clarity and smoothness, and none came within sniffing distance of 125 dB s/n ratio.

I checked over Marantz's line, and there are less expensive integrated amps in this series, the PM6004 and PM5004, but no HDAM circuit, no 125 dB s/n ratio, no ultrawide bandwidth. They're nice units to be sure, but the real magic starts at the PM8004. It's the lowest priced Marantz amp with HDAM.

So I know times are tight. I certainly can't get one right now. But if you're in the market, if you have a reasonably secure job, and you want to see what it's like to introduce true high resolution into your audio system without paying corksniffer prices, this is the best intro I know of.

[pirateflynn]

Impressive .. would you recommend this unit for someone who only listens to vinyl, or is there something more appropriate in

a similar price range?

[JohnnyB]

Impressive .. would you recommend this unit for someone who only listens to vinyl, or is there something more appropriate in

a similar price range?

Concerning the phono stage, the linked Absolute Sound review says:

The same virtues of tonal neutrality, wide dynamics, and low distortion and low noise extend to the exceptionally smooth sounding phonostage. Right at the moment I have neither a highoutput moving-coil nor a movingmagnet pickup, so I used an Ortofon Windfeld through a Quicksilver transformer. With no music playing, I cranked the volume control all the way up and heard nothing at my listening chair. Very few phonostages at any price, even in this day and age, can pass a test like that. Obviously not a tossedin afterthought to generate sales, this phonostage is competitive with some others I’ve heard costing as much as the entire PM8004.

I wasn't able to hear it do vinyl, but I'd really like to. However, the reviewer's assertion that the phono stage 1) is dead quiet even at full volume (indicative of excellent detail and dynamic range) and 2) "is competitive with some others I’ve heard costing as much as the entire PM8004" sounds encouraging for a good vinyl-centered unit to me. Most integrateds in this price range have a plug-in chip or module for the phono stage. The review indicates that this one uses a circuit made of discrete components, more like a separate chassis phono stage.

You might easily be able to audition it for vinyl, as the store's demo rack was a Marantz stack of their TT-15S1 turntable on top, SA8004 disk player, and this integrated amp. A Marantz Reference dealer near you probably has this rig set up for audition. Go to this page, enter your zip code and check the Authorized Showcase Reference Dealer box. Your nearest such dealer is 6 miles away. Some of these are Magnolia AV, which is the store I was in (it's Seattle-based but pretty widespread now).

[pirateflynn]

Cool ... thanks, J.B.

[JohnnyB]

Impressive .. would you recommend this unit for someone who only listens to vinyl, or is there something more appropriate in

a similar price range?

There's one pretty good alternative, the Rega Brio R, which also has a good phono stage (Rega's first love is vinyl playback) and low level resolution. It has about 1/3 less power than the Marantz.

The Marantz, however, has some very useful flexibility over the Rega--3-band EQ, balance control, EQ bypass, preamp out/main in jacks, two processor/recording loops, and two pairs of speaker outputs. What makes the Marantz tone controls particularly useful is that the treble and bass boost/cut occur at the frequency extremes of 15 KHz and 50 Hz. Plus it has a midrange boost/cut centered on 900 Hz. This type of EQ enables very low freq. bass boost without making the upper bass sound boomy or bloated. And it has a bypass switch for all that as well. Rega doesn't publish s/n specs for this amp, but its bandwidth (affecting clarity) is about an octave less than the Marantz.

Still, if you want to comparison shop for a vinyl-friendly integrated in the same price range, it's definitely a good candidate.

[pirateflynn]

I'm a nut. I still desire the modified Scott at Mapleshade.

[JohnnyB]

I'm a nut. I still desire the modified Scott at Mapleshade.

Can't say that I blame you. In the Tone Audio review of the Rega, the reviewer found the Brio much more resolving than other competitive integrated amps, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't auditioned the PM8004. I suspect that Mapleshade's modded Scotts would satisfy your tube jones while providing more resolution (better clarity, definition, and dynamic subtlety and punch) than a current budget tube amp.

For dead nuts neutrality. low noise, wide bandwidth, flexibility, control over a wide variety of speakers, and unfailing musicality,the Marantz is special though.

[pirateflynn]

I just ordered the Marantz PM8004. It will arrive the middle of next week. Thank you, JohnnyB!

[3of5]

JohnnyB,

Thanks for the review. I am in the market for a new amplifier. I'm starting to lose the right channel on my 1987 Proton D540. This Marantz seems to be a significant step up over what I have. I have a pair of Ohm Walsh 2 Speakers. I love these speakers but they could use some enhancement in the base department. Do you have a suggestion for a reasonably compact subwoofer that would work well with my speakers and this amp? Thanks.

[JohnnyB]

JohnnyB,

Thanks for the review. I am in the market for a new amplifier. I'm starting to lose the right channel on my 1987 Proton D540. This Marantz seems to be a significant step up over what I have. I have a pair of Ohm Walsh 2 Speakers. I love these speakers but they could use some enhancement in the base department. Do you have a suggestion for a reasonably compact subwoofer that would work well with my speakers and this amp? Thanks.

The Marantz should be a good match for your Ohm Walsh 2s' sensitivity and power handling. You should notice a significant improvement in clarity, transparency, and a more natural presentation.

As for subwoofers, I added a pair of these to my floorstanders (with similar sensitivity, response curve, and omnidirectional dispersion to your Ohms). You want compact? They're 9" cubes. They also blend very well with speakers, as the subs have continuously variable controls for volume, phase (getting the subwoofer and main speakers to synchronize so all the sound hits your ears at the same time), and crossover point.

These were $800 subwoofers and are built and perform every dollar of it, but at the blowout price you can probably afford to get two, which are exponentially better for dynamics, blend, balance, and stereo imaging. You'll notice that the vendor has several units, so you could specify a quantity of two using BIN.

Subs this size aren't going to give you 20 Hz performance, but for speakers whose bass is pretty much gone by 50 Hz (as yours and mine are), these subs do a great job of filling out that 35-60 Hz rolloff. I can now play large scale operatic and orchestral music and get good impact from concert bass drum, timpani and the like. For rock you get a deeper, stronger driving bass, kick drum, and even snare.

Best of all, these subs are great for music, being tight and fast. They are very powerful (300+ watts rms/1200 watts peak), have aluminum driver cones for fast acceleration, special patented surrounds that allow for longer better controlled excursions, and passive radiators to vent the box for deeper bass without introducing port noise and resonances you often get from a ported enclosure.

These subs only accept line level inputs, but the Marantz has preamp outputs, so you just connect a pair of long RCA cables to the two subwoofers. If you only get one sub, you'd need to get a different model than this Mirage. But a pair is $1600 worth of subs for $480, which is about the entry level for a decent single sub at list price.

If you want something in current production, take a look at these, pick some candidates in your price range, and I'll look 'em over for compatibility with the Marantz.

Another place to look for subs at good prices is Vanns.com. In particular, look at REL, KEF, Sunfire, Klipsch (Klipsch bought Mirage and some of their subs are very similar), Definitive Technology (the SuperCubes are nice), and Infinity.

If you can accommodate the size, the Infinity PSW310W is quite a bargain--a $1200 sub with wireless connection for $250 or $300 depending on finish. They're also affordable enough to get a pair. Infinity is part of Harman International, which has enormous R&D and manufacturing resources. The diaphragms on these subs are a somewhat exotic ceramic/metal matrix amalgam that makes for a very light, very stiff (i.e., less prone to cone breakup) cone material.

[3of5]

JohnnyB,

You are amazing! Thank you for all of this great info. I'll need to do some research but my first thought is to just go with the dual MM-8s as you did. Space is an issue so I like the small size. I have never heard a 2 sub system vs a 1 sub system but I think I will just trust you on this. The great thing about my speakers is they sound good most everywhere in the room and I don't want to compromise that. I am not current with hi-fi technology but where I left off it seemed to be accepted that 1 sub placed most anywhere in the room was just fine since deep base is not so directional.

I don't have plans for a surround sound 3D system. Don't watch a whole bunch of movies and don't need complicated multiroom and switching capabilities. I just want good music in one room and the ability to play audio for movies. Heck, I don't really even need a remote control. This Marantz amp seems to be a good fit for me

I have a slab floor and 14' by 24' room if that factors into the decision. I am guessing that if the 2 pre-outs are used for the MM-8s It won't compromise my ability to play my Blue-Ray through it for movies? One other question. I take it that you want one sub near each speaker? Many thanks.

[JohnnyB]

If space is an issue the Mirages are hard to beat. A 9" cube will fit almost anywhere. I could fit two of them more easily than even a modest (e.g., 14" cube) single sub. I can say with confidence that two of them will work well with your fairly large listening area. I have mine in a living room that's part of an open architecture house. The only rooms with closing doors are the bedrooms and bathrooms. The front hall, living room, dining room, kitchen, upper hall, and family room are all open. Plus LR has a 15' cathedral ceiling. Before getting the subs, the main speakers sounded nice but just didn't have the bass output to energize that large space. The addition of the subs fixed that.

One of the biggest myths on home marketing audio is that you an put a single sub anywhere to get glorious bass. The only reason to say that is to sell subwoofers. In truth, if you like a coherent stereo image and even tonal balance, adding subwoofers takes some trial and error, testing, adjusting, and most of all patience. But it's worth it. After sticking my subs in place and making minor adjustments, I let them go for about 6 months but after awhile felt that I wasn't getting what I wanted out of them. So I spent an afternoon with a test CD with a frequency sweep to dial in the appropriate volume balance, phase, and crossover adjustments. Then I played some bass-intense recordings to evaluate the adjustments. It took around 3 hours but it transformed my system and I look forward to listening to it as never before.

Subs are non-directional only if you keep the crossover point low. Once you raise the crossover point to 150-200 Hz, you can start hearing where it is. This L-R balance can also be affected by room resonances. A single sub is more vulnerable to creating room resonances than two, as the second one can help break up resonances created by the other. Fortunately with your floorstanders you can probably set your sub's crossovers to 50-60 Hz.

To get best imaging and phase coherence, it's probably best to put the subs next to the towers. However, since these subs are very small, they rely (as do most subs) on room boundary reinforcement to fill out that low bass. To get my best bass I turned the subs around so the active drivers face the wall about 2" away--the wall behind the speakers. This slot-loads the soundwaves between the sub and wall, and increases the wall and floor boundary reinforcements. Then I use the Mirages' phase controls to synchronize their soundwaves with the tower speakers. I have mine positioned directly behind the corresponding speakers, close to the wall. I get smooth bass, nice bass extension, increased dynamics, and better imaging and soundstage. It's amazing how a better low foundation makes the other music "pop" into a 3-D acoustic image.

[dgstandard]

Hi JohnnyB,

Thanls for your post - very interesting...love it.

I have a Luxman system I bought in the late 80's with Nuance speakers...supposedly mid to higher end back then (amp/turntable/6+1 CD/2x casette). Worth keeping? The amp was their highest digital offering at the time but all needs work/repair i.e. blown this/scratchie that/eats discs etc.

Also have some large Klipsch speakers (as big as a fridge, if not bigger) that were purchased right around when Heart's Never came around, if I remember right. Still in great shape!

What should a guy do?

[JohnnyB]

Hi JohnnyB, Thanls for your post - very interesting...love it. I have a Luxman system I bought in the late 80's with Nuance speakers...supposedly mid to higher end back then (amp/turntable/6+1 CD/2x casette). Worth keeping? The amp was their highest digital offering at the time but all needs work/repair i.e. blown this/scratchie that/eats discs etc. Also have some large Klipsch speakers (as big as a fridge, if not bigger) that were purchased right around when Heart's Never came around, if I remember right. Still in great shape! What should a guy do?

Could you tell me which Klipsches you have from looking at these? Another near refrigerator-sized model they made back then was the Belle Klipsch. By "digital amp," do you mean that the Luxman is a receiver with a digital tuner? AFAIK all amps operated in the analog mode, even the Class D switching amps that are sometimes called digital. Also AFAIK, there were no Class D switching amps (other than in subwoofers) in the '80s.

Between the two sets of speakers, the better ones (especially if they're some of the old school big floorstanding Klipsches), would be the ones to keep. I still need to know the model name or number. Klipsches--especially these models--are very sensitive. They don't need much power but it needs to be smooth and clean. If your Klipsches are what I think you have, you could make'em rock with a modestly powered (e.g., 35 wpc) integrated tube amp. The Marantz would also be a good match because, although it's solid state, it is very clean, low noise and smooth without a hint of solid state hash or glare. Your Klipsches would like that.

What sources are you playing from now--CD, iPod, computer, turntable, satellite radio, streaming internet? That could make some difference on the best component stack to go with now.

If you tell me the model name/number of your Luxman gear I can get an idea of whether it's worth fixing and refreshing. Luxman made some great tube stuff in the '70s-80s, but in 1985 the company was sold to the Alpine car audio company who changed it into a solid state mid-fi company. Still decent, but not like it once was, which was like Japan's answer to McIntosh.

Give me an idea of your budget and what you'd like your system to do for you.

[dgstandard]

Thanks JohnnyB!

The speakers are the Klipschorns.

The Luxman model #'s:

- receiver: digital R117

- turntable: P100

- cd player: DC 114

- cassette: HX Pro

I had a choice between a tube amp and the solid state receiver at the time...not knowing the difference, I chose the newer model with more bells and whistles. I went back to the store this last November and asked the owner (same guy that sold it all to me) if by the off chance he knew where that old tube amp was - he just shrugged his shoulders, which was expected. It was worth a try!

I just like listening to vinyl, CD's & cassettes. I do not have any music in any other format and do not see changing this anytime soon.

Budget: within reason, whatever that is. I have two young children so I am not leaning towards going out and spending big $$$ on something sensitive they may bugger up. The oldest is turning six tomorrow and has just started flipping through my albums so little hands will start using the stereo fairly soon.

[3of5]

JohnnyB,

Once again thank you for your advice. I really appreciate the detail. I think I am going to order the MM-8s this weekend.

[JohnnyB]

The speakers are the Klipschorns.

I don't know if you noticed, but current list price for a pair of these is $8,000. Unless you have a compelling reason not to use them, if you can place them in two corners of a room, stick with them. Klipschorn is probably the longest running home audio speaker design, introduced in 1946. They still do things very few other speakers do, most notably recreate the entire dynamic range of just about any live musical performance on a few watts. Their sensitivity rating is 105 db (loud) with 1 watt input, listening from 1 meter away. They are capable of cleanly putting out 125 dB, which is a bit on the other side of the threshold of pain and hearing loss. 70 wpc will give you clean peaks of 122 dB.

I checked around the Web about Nuance and I haven't seen anything compelling for you to keep them unless you like them or need a spare set of speakers for a second setup.

The Luxman model #'s:

- receiver: digital R117

I found a lot of enthusiasm for this unit, being clean, powerful, and flexible. There are concerns about finding parts to keep them running well. Here's a restoration specialist. Still, given that your unit is 20-25 yrs old, and if you build a new system around the Klipschorns, you'd do better with the Marantz PM8004 or one of the newer tube integrated amps from Rogue Audio, PrimaLuna, or Jolida.

- turntable: P100

I was all set to advise to ditch this unit, but then I listened (on good headphones) to this YouTube demo and I was impressed with its clarity, dynamics, and smoothness. There are a lot of excellent turntables that have come out in the last few years that tend to trump the turntables of the '80s, but you might hang onto this one. For a refresh, replace the turntable belt (if you're noticing speed fluctuations, this is probably the cause), oil the platter bearing, and replace the stylus or whole cartridge. You could also lower the noise floor with the right aftermarket turntable mat.

If you replace the cartridge, get something with a dynamic compliance rating around 20-25, such as the Ortofon 2M Blue or Bronze, Goldring 1000 or 2000 series, Shure M97xE upgraded with this SAS stylus, or the Grado Prestige Gold.

Otherwise, move up to the Marantz TT15S1, Sota Moonbeam II or Comet, Rega RP3, Clearaudio Concept, or VPI Traveler. All these are fully manual turntables. If you want an automated single-play turntable, the only good choice I know of is Thorens, such as the TD 240.

- cd player: DC 114

A lot of improvement in digital decoding technology since 1990. If you like the convenience of a changer, either go with a good 5-disc carousel or one of those mega-servers from Sony or Pioneer that hold 300-400 discs. This 301-disc Pioneer Elite looks attractive. If single-player is OK, the matching Marantz SA8004 is really good and also plays SACDs, which you might enjoy.

- cassette: HX Pro

If you're satisfied with the tapes it makes, take it to a tech to have the heads cleaned and demagnetized, and see if it needs new belts. The year you bought this was about the peak for price/performance of cassette decks. To get as good or better one, you'd almost certainly have to buy used. New ones have gone the way of Discman players and VHS recorders.

[dgstandard]

Wow, JohnnyB - you're freaking awesome!

The Klipschorns are in storage as there is not enough room in our current house. We plan to build in the next year and will be sure to have enough space for them then. I will take your advice and look into doing both - refreshing the Luxman/Nuance and getting a new setup but will need some time to save. Without airing all my details, I'll be in touch.

I really appreciate your advice

[pirateflynn]

I gotta tell ya the refurbished Marantz PM 8004 sounds great right out of the box. I'll spend a little time with it today and give a more in depth opinion. Thanks, JB!

[pirateflynn]

Now, if you will just recommend some speakers equivalent to the Sonus faber Cremona for about 300 bucks.

[JohnnyB]

Now, if you will just recommend some speakers equivalent to the Sonus faber Cremona for about 300 bucks.

Sounds ludicrous, but the gap is narrower than you might think. How about $503.10/pair with free shipping? That's a limited time sale, though. Prices will be going back up to $639 and maybe $799 eventually.

Naturally, they're not going to be the equivalent of a $12.5K handmade speaker, but the August issue of Stereophile reviewed these, and they are surprisingly free of cabinet resonances (very important for rendering that low level detail I heard with the Marantz/Sonus Faber combo), good bass extension, excellent dynamics, and a flat frequency response you don't usually see at this price point. What are the sacrifices? Plain jane black cabinets and direct marketing.

For speakers that should come surprisingly close to the breathtaking resolution of the Sonus Fabers, there are the Monitor Audio RX6 towers at $1250/pair list.

These use proprietary magnesium/ceramic laminate driver diaphragms for lightness and rigidity. These are the low level resolution/inner detail champs below $2K/pair.

For $800/pair you'd be hard-pressed to beat the Mirage OMD-15's. This is what I've been listening through for the past 4 years. They are extremely natural sounding and fill the entire listening space without hot spots or suckouts. These were originally $2500/pair speakers 4 yrs ago. There may be better $2500 speakers now, but not at $800.

And if you're still enamored of the midrange speed and clarity of Klipsch, here's a modern $950/pair on sale for $377.76/pair. They'll have better bass extension and imaging than your Heresy's, and you don't have to sacrifice a pair of tennis shoes flip-flops to aim them at your ears.

Fixed.

[pirateflynn]

... and you don't have to sacrifice a pair of tennis shoes to aim them at your ears.

Those were flip-flops! You'd be proud of me. I have the speakers off of the floor now.

[3of5]

JohnnyB,

Just installed my MM-8s. A good sign. I didn't know they were on at first until I turned them back off. Then I realized what I have been missing all these years. Don't have much time to listen to these until I return from vacation in a couple of weeks. Thanks again.

[JohnnyB]

JohnnyB,

Just installed my MM-8s. A good sign. I didn't know they were on at first until I turned them back off. Then I realized what I have been missing all these years. Don't have much time to listen to these until I return from vacation in a couple of weeks. Thanks again.

Then you did a good job of integrating the subs. Generally speaking, subs shouldn't call attention to themselves. If you don't notice them when they're playing but you miss them when they're off, they're working the right way. If the sub's volume level and/or crossover frequency is set too high, they add an annoying thump to everything.

Sometimes you get good unanticipated consequences. I noticed my the stereo imaging and soundstage popped into a more 3D presentation with the subs on.