Paging Johnny B. Tube stereo inquiry

[Citrus]

Chasing the Dragon.

Fondly remember the sound of my dads old stereo?? system. Most vivd was the ddep warm sound of a DJs voice from the tuner.

It was set up inside a console, with 1 big speaker enclosure built to sit in a corner.

would like to see if its possible to get close to what I remember, so would like to get into tubes as economically as possible.

Have been looking on evilbay at some older and "vintage" integrated systems. Questions - apparently a whole bunch

1) is it worh going older for less expensive, or can you do "modern" economically.

I'm looking at the following units. Will these just end up costing more in the long run with maintenance and upkeep??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111230282714?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271233482739?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

2) these tend to be lower power units, and I'm not sure what speakers or what sensitivity would be best matched.

I currently have a good solid state system Arcam Alpha 10 with B&W CDM7 speakers which I believe are rate @ 90 db

I'm sure those speakers are a little too power hungry for 10-20 watt amps. again looking to go budget.

I do have a powered subwoofer not in use if you think it would work well

Appreciate any input - Merry Christmas

[tomteriffic]

The first set I would think would last a good long time. Caps have been re-formed and if the tubes are good now, they'll likely stay that way for a long time. And it looks like the guy who refurbed this rig is pretty old-school and knows what he's doing.

Couldn't say about the Lafayette. Looks clean but they weren't known as a very high-quality brand back in the day. Heath prided themselves on their quality.

The more sensitivity you can wring out of your speaker set the better. Vented/horn-loaded speaker systems were the order of the day back then. If memory serves, the venerable corner-loaded Klipschorn had a sensitivity rating of 104 db, which meant that one of those and a 20-watt amp could get you evicted.

Wiser heads will be along presently, I'm sure.

[JohnnyB]

What TomTerrific said. I'd favor the Heath over the Lafayette. There's a small misprint in the eBay ad; the power tubes are ECL86/6GW8, not ECL96. The bad news is they're not in current production, but the good news seems to be that demand is relatively low and there are NOS tubes on eBay at attractive prices.

Although Klipschorns are crazy efficient, they have their own practical considerations (such as size and weight, old school dispersion, etc.) plus they are pretty expensive, as in $2500-9000 for excellent condition working models on age and condition. The Heath is rated at 12 wpc, but consider that even with 90 dB efficient speakers (not hard to find among modern speakers), this amp could hit clean peaks of 103 dB, which would be sufficient in a small-to-medium-sized room.

As for your nostalgia for the "deep warm sound of FM," there were several things at work to make that sound.

• Some of it was tubes, but the tubes' contribution to that "warm sound" is likely related to tube amps' relatively high output impedance and therefore low damping factor, which lets the woofers run loosely. The great strength of tubes is their organic midrange.
• Most tweeters back then were rolling off at 10 Khz and were pretty much gone by 15Khz.
• Back then most FM was uncompressed, and the DJ's voice had a bass boost EQ or it was achieve with close miking (mike was right up to the DJ's mouth). This proximity effect causes a bass boost of about 5 dB peaking at 100 Hz.
• Then take a 12" or 15" woofer-based speaker system and corner load it to boost more bass in that 50-200 Hz range.

And there you have the big warm '50s-'60s FM sound. Personally I like something more linear with more clarity, but there you are. Those Heaths are great units. My bro-in-law built a similar set around 1960 and still has them.

[tomteriffic]

Just 2 cents worth added (no charge). Until the past 20 years or so, it was very common to find ribbon microphones in use in radio stations, particularly old-line "been around forever" stations. These were typically the old RCA types that had that inherently warm, intimate sound with rolled-off highs. This, as much as anything, maybe moreso, was responsible for that warm, "in your ear" kind of announce voice.

Consider that, up until "hi-fi" hit, most radio and music was listened to on tinny, squawky speakers. And the few audio nuts around weren't enough of a market to make broadcasters change their practices. So, a warm, bassy character to a voice compensated for the squawky speaker it was being heard over. And, as John noted, anything above 10Khz was essentially non-existent in the audio chain.. Mics didn't pick those frequencies up, so why bother making speakers that reproduced it?

This squawky speaker/warm gooey microphone combo was pretty much the paradigm from the 1930's well into the 1950's. Which explains why you saw a bazillion shots of Sinatra and whoever perched behind an RCA ribbon mic.

[JohnnyB]

Just 2 cents worth added (no charge). Until the past 20 years or so, it was very common to find ribbon microphones in use in radio stations, particularly old-line "been around forever" stations. These were typically the old RCA types that had that inherently warm, intimate sound with rolled-off highs. This, as much as anything, maybe moreso, was responsible for that warm, "in your ear" kind of announce voice.

You know, these guys:

Johnny Carson used 'em a lot.

[Citrus]

Thanks gentlemen,

Sounds like the warm dj vocal thing went out with the "golden age" of radio.

May just give the tube thing a shot anyway. Would like to start listening to vinyl again, and also see what tubes do for my CDs.

Probably set the stereo up in my "office/guest bedroom" since it is a smaller room.

Found a pair of Klipsch KM-4 Floorstanding Pair Speaker music Home Theater Surround Sounds on ebay for about $120

They have a 94 db sensitivity which should help them produce good volume with lower wattage.

So all in for about $550 between the Heathkit and speakers. Good Value??

As previously stated, my current set up is good, but would like to check out what a decent?good? tube amp

Is this a good starting point, should I hear a difference compared to the Arcam, or should I save up more $$ and go for higher quality tube amp?

Thanks again!

[JohnnyB]

The Klipsches would be a good sensitivity match for the Heathkit. Together they should be able to hit clean peaks of around 106 dB, which is pretty loud. If you don't like the Klipsches, they're inexpensive enough (though you do have $79 shipping to deal with) that you wouldn't lose much if you move on to something else. The Heath combo) tuner+amp) strikes me as a good value.

Of course the Heathkit will sound different from the Arcam. The Arcam will be faster with more clarity and extension at the frequency extremes. The Heath will have a midrange that probably speaks to you. Whether you like this difference over time is TBD and may or may not be significant to you, or simply worth the sacrifice at the frequency extremes for that midrange. Don't expect the 8" woofers in the Klipsch mini-towers to give you that big bass that you remember from corner-loaded 12" or 15" woofers. But they'll be clean, and you can always use the tone knobs on that Heathkit to shape the tonal balance to your liking.