TVs - LED or LCD?

[hamerhead]

Which one and why?

[JohnnyB]

Thanks for the advice Sir John. I bought the 42" version of the 1080 Plasma Viera and could not be happier. I am at a loss as to what to do for the audio portion of the equation. I still have my 2-ch system in storage (PSB Stratus Golds, Denon DS separates, Rotel 225Wpc) and the room I have to place all this stuff is 16 wide by 12 deep with the TV on the 16 foot wall and the sitting position up against the opposite wall. Using a Bose soundbar for the moment (I know...) but it is okay for TV. Doesn't do the Who justice though:-)

I'm not sure what your budget and space limitations are here, but this is a killer deal, especially considering that the little sub retails for $599 by itself.

If you want better with more dynamic range, get four of these (originally $375 ea.), a matching center channel, and a good sub. This sub is more money but should be better (more power, bigger driver) and would double on music better as well (sealed box vs. ported). Those OMD5 satellites are really good. They were originally $750/pair. I like wide dispersion speakers in home theater because together they make a seamless surround soundfield. I can find links to reviews to some of this gear if you're interested.

I'm a big fan of separates, and you could go with the Emotiva UMC-1 surround processor plus a 5-channel amp. Or to save shelf space and some money you could get a decent AV receiver from Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, etc.

Do you still have your Shahinian Diapasons?

[JGale]

Oy! Such niceness. Shahinian Arcs, but I like the way you think. Nope. Gone to a new home in Michigan. Thank you for the referrals.

[JGale]

Thanks for the advice Sir John. I bought the 42" version of the 1080 Plasma Viera and could not be happier. I am at a loss as to what to do for the audio portion of the equation. I still have my 2-ch system in storage (PSB Stratus Golds, Denon DS separates, Rotel 225Wpc) and the room I have to place all this stuff is 16 wide by 12 deep with the TV on the 16 foot wall and the sitting position up against the opposite wall. Using a Bose soundbar for the moment (I know...) but it is okay for TV. Doesn't do the Who justice though:-)

I'm not sure what your budget and space limitations are here, but this is a killer deal, especially considering that the little sub retails for $599 by itself.

If you want better with more dynamic range, get four of these (originally $375 ea.), a matching center channel, and a good sub. This sub is more money but should be better (more power, bigger driver) and would double on music better as well (sealed box vs. ported). Those OMD5 satellites are really good. They were originally $750/pair. I like wide dispersion speakers in home theater because together they make a seamless surround soundfield. I can find links to reviews to some of this gear if you're interested.

I'm a big fan of separates, and you could go with the Emotiva UMC-1 surround processor plus a 5-channel amp. Or to save shelf space and some money you could get a decent AV receiver from Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, etc.

Do you still have your Shahinian Diapasons?

John

Have you heard any good things about these Cambridge Audio Minx systems?

I set up the Stratus Golds and they are far, far too large for the room (damn damn and damn). I'm really just a two channel d00d, so it is painful to consider losing these behemoths, but given the size of the room and the need for in-conspicuousness, I have to go small. TV's okay but listening to music is better.

Thanks for listening and commenting. Your opinions hold a lot of weight with moi.

[JohnnyB]

John Have you heard any good things about these Cambridge Audio Minx systems? I set up the Stratus Golds and they are far, far too large for the room (damn damn and damn). I'm really just a two channel d00d, so it is painful to consider losing these behemoths, but given the size of the room and the need for in-conspicuousness, I have to go small. TV's okay but listening to music is better.

I'm familiar with Cambridge Audio in that it's one of Henry Kloss's companies (along with AR, KLH, Advent, and Kloss Video and TIvoli); therefore a level of quality, usability, home integration, and canny use of psycho acoustics is to be expected. I was, however, unprepared for the glowing review at Home Theater Mag.

Normally I'm not a fan of such tiny satellites that roll off so high (an admitted 130 Hz), as it hands a lot of fundamentals (including some human speech) off to the dislocated subwoofer. Still, the review is pretty enthusiastic and the only caveats are room size and limited color choice.

Still, the Mirage OMD5's on closeout at Vann's plus a good matching sub is not a lot more money and is built to a much higher standard. Five OMD5s from Vann's is $1K; they were originally $1875 and feature more expensive parts and engineering--curved resonance-free enclosures, pure titanium-domed tweeters with cloth surrounds, titanium-coated polypropylene midrange driver with high excursion surround, power handling to around 200 watts, and bass extension down to 60 Hz, more than an octave deeper than the Cambridge satellites. For an extra $100 you can get a dedicated matching center channel spkr instead of the fifth OMD5. The OMDC1 was a $750 center channel speaker. In my experience, the deeper the bass extension of the satellites, the easier it is to get seamless integration with the sub. Here's a review of a Mirage system including OMD5s as surrounds and the OMDC1 center channel speaker. The reviewer was quite taken by the OMD5's.

For a sub, consider the highly touted REL T2. That brings the total to $1500 or $1600 depending on whether you get the dedicated center channel speaker or not.

For a factory package in the Cambridge price range, I'd be more inclined to go with the KEF KHT3005. $2K is a lot more than the Cambridge, but see the open box special to the right for $1424.99. Similar to the Mirages, the KEF satellites lower frequency extension is 70 Hz. Professional review here.

[JGale]

Okay. What if...I get a pair of these, thereby ending a long standing craving for their much bigger isobaric brother, and pair them with some lesser speakers for the other channels? In my mythology, I'd gain a (relatively) impressive audio system with the ability to fall asleep on the couch watching Time Bandits in glorious surround sound..

[JohnnyB]

Okay. What if...I get a pair of these, thereby ending a long standing craving for their much bigger isobaric brother, and pair them with some lesser speakers for the other channels? In my mythology, I'd gain a (relatively) impressive audio system with the ability to fall asleep on the couch watching Time Bandits in glorious surround sound..

Well, Totem loudspeakers are generally well liked and their cabinetry is first rate. Have you heard them? I am also intrigued by the Mani-2 Signatures, but I've looked at enough reviews and response curves of the various Totem stand-mounted speakers that they seem to vary in tonal balance significantly from one to another. One thing that seems to be consistent, however, is a rising high treble. In the case of the Dreamcatcher it's a 5 dB rise from 6-10K. This adds emphasis to the overtones of a great number of instruments, giving the impression it's resolving more air and detail when it's simply amplifying that part of the audio spectrum. This is further aggravated by a -8dB dip at about 1800 Hz. Here's the test response curve to illustrate what I'm talking about:

The tonal balance would be a significant departure both from your dearly departed Shahinians and the PSB Stratus Golds. Maybe you're ready for a change, or maybe your desire for Mani-2's is boosting your attraction for the Dreamcatchers.

Totem makes good stuff and it's gorgeous, but reading between the lines of the Stereophile review, I think the Dreamcatchers would grow fatiguing over time, what with the cabinet resonances that exaggerate certain frequencies, and the narrow gap at the internal entrance to the port that makes it hoot easily. Here's a spectral decay graph showing the cabinet resonances. Look at how noisy it is in the midrange on up:

By contrast, here are the spectra decay and response graphs for the Mani-2 Signatures you really want:

Look how clean and resonance-free the Mani-2 is from 1K up. Its frequency response curve is also exceptionally linear and the bass response is particularly well-behaved with no 80-100 hz bump and real bass (-5dB) down to 27 Hz. It would sound significantly different from the Dreamcatcher.

For a $600-700 high-resolution mini-monitor with a tonal balance more similar to your past speakers, I recommend you take a look at the new PSB Imagine Mini. They're about the same price as the Dreamcatcher and are getting enthusiastic reviews. They're also about the same size with similar sensitivity and the same amplifier rating (10-80 watts).

There are some advantages to going PSB instead of Totem. Totem makes a full array of home theater speakers to (sort of) go with the Dreamcatchers in the form of center channel, subwoofer, and surrounds. However, the Dreamcatcher is the least expensive speaker in their lineup, and these HT speakers are made to match up with their more expensive models.

OTOH, PSB uses the same tweeter in their lower lines, which should make for a more uniform match among speakers in a surround system. They also make some very excellent inexpensive speakers such as the $299/pair Alpha B1 or the $250/pair Alpha L/R 1. Even the Alpha B1 has lower cabinet resonances and a more linear response curve than the Dreamcatcher. PSB also makes affordable center channel speakers and subs affordable subs that integrate well with the Imagine Mini's.

I I were considering Totems in your situation, I'd probably try for the Arros. See if you can wrangle a deal or cast about for some used ones. They're very petite floorstanders with a 5.1" x 7.1" footprint and a demure 33" tall. No stands required, and they have a hollow chamber you can fill with sand or shot to quell cabinet resonances.

[JGale]

Excellent advice (as always). Thank you.

I've spent a lot of hours recently pouring over reviews and specs and trying the "gather all the data and let it sort itself out in your subconscious" approach. Giving me headaches at best, but still exciting. I'd forgotten how much fun messin' about in speakers can be...

Oddly, I just crossed the Totems off the list last night and I read this today. Hmmm.

Anyway, here is my latest thinking:

I loved my Arcs, but I always felt a little uncomfortable with the presentation and the relative obscurity of instruments in a mix. But damn if Dean Peer's "Lord's of the Tundra" didn't rattle the rafters and get the goosebumps all a-twitter. Phil Keaggy's "Addison's Walk" was huge! Sounded like the acoustic solo guitar was 12 feet tall!

The Arc's were position sensitive for the bass and ended up 3-4 feet off the back walls. No room for that here.

I ended up keeping the PSB's after a month of comparing the two in home.

Human voice (Allison Krauss,

) was superb and the PSBs would go loud, low and clear. There is a Montreal Symphony Orchestra recording of Holtz' The Planets (Mars, The Bringer of War) where the melody resolves to this incredibly low organ note and stuffing comes flying out of the woofer port every time every time. LOL!

I also have a problem in that the wall immediately behind the right speaker disappears into the Kitchen space leaving me no rear boundary to reinforce/redirect any omni directional signal, leading me to believe a direct radiator would be more effective in this location as well. I have a couple of floorstanding "Room Tunes", turned reflective side in, that help improve the sound-staging, but only just.

Annnnnd...I think HT is low on my list of urges to satisfy. In real life, my wife and I rarely go to movie theaters, and after having Netflix for the last three months (new to me), have watched only two movies all the way through.

I'm gonna post this much now, 'cuz I don't know how many characters this new format will allow.

Back shortly...

[JGale]

And, we're back.

Given that HT is not a priority, I thought I would beef up my music listening and live with the SR-1 for movies.

Here is what I am looking at:

NHT Classic Three, $800/pr, three way design.

PSB Imagine B, $1100/pr, two way design. Drop dead fu(king gorgeous.

Dynaudio Excite x12, $1200, two way.

Source components will stay the same for a while, and I can look for a single box amplification solution and a new source like the Emotiva or the Oppo.

TL;DR - Get new speakers and wait on the Surround Sound till it becomes important to us.

What do you think of my logic and/or choices to audition?

As always, should you or any of your force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow and knowledge of your actions.

Thanks you in advance.

[JGale]

P.S. Components for this journey are:

Rotel RB990-BX. 330W per into 4 ohms. LOL!

Denon DCD S-10

Denon PRA S-10 (corrected nomenclature)

[JohnnyB]

I think your thinking is moving in a good direction. The out-of-production PSB Stratus Gold floorstanders leave big shoes to fill. In spite of their imposing size and deep bass, they have a deceptively transparent and lively midrange, typically the province of mini-monitors. Every so often an PSB Stratus Gold owner comes up on Audiogon asking what's a worthy successor and most responses call for something north of $5K to beat it. Ah well.

Since you liked the PSBs so much, I'm inclined to favor PSB monitors as they'll have that same realistic midrange improved by 15 years of driver design and refinement. The PSB Imagine B's show up on some selective Editor's Choice and Recommended Components lists. I'm not as keen on NHT. A lot of people like them but they're often a bit forward for my taste and seem to appeal more to the "speed & detail" aficionados. Since you liked the Stratus Gold and Shahinians, I doubt your taste runs to the hot'n'forward tonal balance. I've never read anything bad about Dynaudios. Not sure if I've heard any, but I don't think you could lose with those, either. I've never read a bad review of them.

However, given that your choices are now moving above $1K, the small speaker everybody's talking about, that seems to have a special place in the affordable stand-mounted market, is the Nola Boxer at $1500 (Nola website here). Nola is the latest company by Carl Marchisotto, who previously headed Alon and before that was chief designer for the great open baffle designs that came out of Dahlquist starting with the DQ-20. As you can see, they also have gorgeous cabinetry. Rave reviews abound. Go to the Alon website, choose Reviews by Product and scroll down to the Boxer reviews. Or just go here, here, here, and here.

One (well, two) other up-and-comer(s) to look at: the GoldenEar Aon, available as the Aon 2 or Aon 3, at $800 or $1K/pair. Not gorgeous like the PSB Imagine B or Nola Boxer, but amp-friendly and better than typical bass extension for a stand-mounted speaker. Also, their fast midrange and refined folded ribbon tweeter are better than you typically get in a speaker at this price. I've heard the tower flagship of this brand, which uses the same midrange and ribbon tweet, and they're smooth, refined, transparent, dynamic, and well integrated.

I think you'd love the Boxer, though.

Edited to add:

I see your Rotel power amp and Denon integrated. Are you using the Denon as a front end for the Rotel? If so, are you using a headphone adapter cord to connect them, as I think I discovered that the Denon doesn't have pre-outs. Enquiring minds want to know.

[JGale]

Heeey! You just recommended the Aons because you discerned I have the hots for passive radiators!! No fair.

I am reminded of Cylons,

in a good way, like:

and extremley intrigued. The search for nearest dealers begins. Maybe DC?

Edited to add: Shit. There are two Golden Ear dealer locations minutes from me in Roanoke. WTF, O.

[JGale]

PRA S-10 PRA!

The Denon PRA is a straight preamp. The Rotel only has RCA in. I'm running balanced to the PMA. RCAs to the Rotel. Tributaries flat cables bi-wired to the PSBs. I would love to keep the PSBs, but the bass was overwhelming in my last room and this one here is almost half the volume. I heard this system complete at a dealer. One of those situations where a Mom and Pop hired this young gun who talked them into higher end gear than usual and the neighborhood wouldn't support it. He was leaving for bigger markets and this was an albatross to the owners. 40% off!

Edited all above to correct my goof. It is a Denon PRA S-10 preamp.

[JohnnyB]

Heeey! You just recommended the Aons because you discerned I have the hots for passive radiators!! No fair.

Then you'd probably love one or two of their matching subwoofers!

[JGale]

Well. That. Was. Just. Fine.

/stridentoldwomanvoice

A very disappointing demo of the Golden Ear speakers. It went something like this (cue Beverly Hillbillies soundtrack):

Hello. Do you have the Golden Ear monitors in house that I could listen to?

Sure we do. Come on down!

(travel to store)

(takes me into a room full of expensive glass)

Yup, we got all good stuff here, 24bit, 96khz, tubes, turntables, everything, but we ain't got those Aon thingys. Got the smaller wall mounts though...let me show you the towers

(proceeds to demo the GE Triton towers with a 50W TEAC CD receiver)

You got to toe these ian to point straight at you head to get the full effect!

(puts on a Dire Straits CD)

I am instantly transported back to 1971, to my sisters (then) 20 year old Dodge, the 4x6 in the dashboard. I swear, it was just like real life! In mono, because half the time I sat there he was standing in front of the left speaker fiddling with the tube sock grill.

You shouldn't have to give up 40 IQ points just to live in the mountains.

Next up, this guy: http://tesva.com/high_fidelity.aspx He has Nola Boxers and Contenders hooked up to Mark Levinson. Two hours to Charlottesville. Hope it's worth it.

[JohnnyB]

Well. That. Was. Just. Fine. /stridentoldwomanvoice A very disappointing demo of the Golden Ear speakers. It went something like this (cue Beverly Hillbillies soundtrack): Hello. Do you have the Golden Ear monitors in house that I could listen to? Sure we do. Come on down! (travel to store) (takes me into a room full of expensive glass) Yup, we got all good stuff here, 24bit, 96khz, tubes, turntables, everything, but we ain't got those Aon thingys. Got the smaller wall mounts though...let me show you the towers (proceeds to demo the GE Triton towers with a 50W TEAC CD receiver) You got to toe these ian to point straight at you head to get the full effect! (puts on a Dire Straits CD) I am instantly transported back to 1971, to my sisters (then) 20 year old Dodge, the 4x6 in the dashboard. I swear, it was just like real life! In mono, because half the time I sat there he was standing in front of the left speaker fiddling with the tube sock grill. You shouldn't have to give up 40 IQ points just to live in the mountains. Next up, this guy: http://tesva.com/high_fidelity.aspx He has Nola Boxers and Contenders hooked up to Mark Levinson. Two hours to Charlottesville. Hope it's worth it.

Too bad about the GoldenEars. As you found out the hard way, "monitor" is too general a term to make sure they had Aons in stock and ready to demo. The worst part is the crap electronics he demo'd them on. My local GoldenEar dealer is Seattle's premier high end store, so when I heard the Triton 2's a year ago, they were powered by either Ayre Acoustics or Classe'.

Given GoldenEar's mid-fi lineage (Polk, Definitive Technology), some franchises don't recognize the GoldenEars for their much higher resolution and team them with mediocre electronics. In those cases the Tritons just show how crappy the upstream electronics are. I've read reviews where the reviewer had to swap out a mid-fi receiver for some serious separates to get them to sing.

The Nola dealer looks like he knows what he's doing, given that he's all about component and and room interaction. I do wonder if you could go back to the GoldenEar dealer and specify a better amp or bring your own (if you thought it was worth the trouble).

Anyway, good luck. I'll be interested to read your take on the Boxers.

Edited to add: I just read (and re-read) the Stereophile review for the Dynaudio Excite X12. Now that one really has me intrigued. So intrigued that I've hunted down a local dealer and intend to audition them myself. I have fast little subwoofers that should seamlessly add 1/2 octave at the bottom, and it these little guys do everything the review says (especially being able to hold together for full scale orchestra) I may bring home a pair myself. For a very small speaker to have excellent dynamics the drivers must be of very high quality, built to close tolerances and able to make bigger than average excursions and still stay together. Dynaudio makes their own speaker drivers and therefore has the economic advantage of vertical integration. They make what they sell--no outsourcing. And what they make is top notch. Totem uses many of their drivers and their Model One was certainly based on their extraordinary little woofer with the 3" voice coil. This could in part explain why this tiny X12 has become the reviewer's sub $2K reference even though it's only $1200/pair.

[JGale]

Just back in from West Virginia. First time rock climbing in a long while. Aleve is my verybestfren right now.

More later, but in brief, the Nola's were beautiful, just beautiful. New, out of the box with so much settling in to do, they had magic galore. Your review of the x12s is all that stands in my way Sensei.

[JohnnyB]

Just back in from West Virginia. First time rock climbing in a long while. Aleve is my verybestfren right now.

More later, but in brief, the Nola's were beautiful, just beautiful. New, out of the box with so much settling in to do, they had magic galore. Your review of the x12s is all that stands in my way Sensei.

Your assessment of the Boxers is consistent with every review I've read of them--that they have this "magic" quality that makes the music particularly engaging and seductive. It turns out that so far my quest to hear the Dynaudios is a bust. There is only one tiny specialty store that carries them in my entire County. I stopped by yesterday with an armload of records and the place is closed. The signs are still up, there's still gear inside, but the website is way out of date and his voice mailbox is full. I talked to the owner of another little stereo store 4 blocks up the street and he said the guy hadn't been onsite to run his store in 4-6 mos. I don't know how guys like that manage to continue to pay the rent without keeping the place open to make some money.

The only other Dynaudio dealer in my area (according to Dynaudio's dealer directory) is a home security/installed home theater consulting firm in the next county up. AFAIK they don't really have a showroom and aren't into selling boxes. They sell hard-wired installed security, HT, and sound systems. So--assuming I can even get somebody there to talk to me--I'm not optimistic about being about to audition the X12s there either.

The Boxers have some inherent advantages over the X12s: They play louder on less power and have more bass extension. Between the two they'll fill a room better and should have better dynamics. All for a $300 difference.

I'd love to give you a review of the X12s but I'm not sure if I'll be able to. I think you'll be very happy with the Boxers and the appreciation will grow as they break in and you discover all that they can do.

[JGale]

Ahhhh. Finally a break in the action...

The equipment driving the Boxers was top notch. A gigabigass media server that "rips the audio at 32bits from the DSP before the filtering and when retrieved, reconstitutes a redbook standard signal with proprietary filtering"...blah, blah. Around 160 wpch of Mark Levinson amplification, MIT cables, cheap stands (recommended by the manf. apparently). Large room with 12 foot ceilings. He had a bunch of stuff queued on an Ipad.

My notes:

"Kottke's 12 string Crow River Waltz sounded like a beat up Bozo I once heard. All earthy and in your face.

Nora Jones' piano had that, what is it, that soft woodiness the pads impart when they hit the strings. A faint pofp to the notes, so fuk'ng beautiful.

I have never listened to Sarah McLachlan. All I know is she pimps sick dogs and cats on UPN. Apparently she has the voice of an angel and you can hear it rebounding off the studio wall 4 feet beyond her and slightly to the right. The wall angles away to the left from the mics POV. WTF! I started getting a boner. A boner! It was that good.

Sinatra/Basie was a little more laid back than I remember through the PSBs. The bass was not remarkable, present, but in the bakground. I assume that this will change with break in. If the mid-range gets any better I'll have to get a prescription from my Doctor to listen to them.

They filled the room side to side. Not as vertically large a presentation as the Arcs would have put out but then 12 foot guitars are not normal, are they?

Just a beautiful sweetness, like a candy that imparts more richness than sweetness. Real Vermont maple sugar candy. Yummy.

Like I said. Just beautiful.

For sale: One set of well cared for PSB Stratus Golds.

Thank you John.

Edit to add: Sarah McLachlan is how it's spelled.

[JGale]

Look what I found on Craigslist for $400. PSB Stratus Minis. Same drivers as the top half of the Golds. Rounded corner cabinets.

Stratus Golds $700. I'll deliver as far as Richmond.

[JohnnyB]

Look what I found on Craigslist for $400. PSB Stratus Minis. Same drivers as the top half of the Golds. Rounded corner cabinets.

Stratus Golds $700. I'll deliver as far as Richmond.

You can see that the Mini uses a different mid/woofer than the Gold's midrange, but with the identical tweeter and a common designer, I'm guessing the basic presentation is very similar minus the bottom octave, no?

And if you hanker for some more bass, you've saved enough money with this purchase that you could get one or two subs to blend in and add some bass extension. If you want some sub recommendations let me know.