Question for the drum collectors

[Turdus]

I found a set of late 60's Ludwigs, locally. OK condition, but the bass drum appears to have been drilled for a double tom holder. You can see the original 4 holes from the rail type tom mount, as well as the adapter for the cymbal stand, still attached to the BD. The mounted tom, plus floor tom are missing the muffler assemblies.

To a collector, this may be the kiss of death. But assuming a similar set, in original condition, is worth $1000,

how much does drilling the bass drum reduce the set value? 10%, 50%, 75% ????

[JohnnyB]

I found a set of late 60's Ludwigs, locally. OK condition, but the bass drum appears to have been drilled for a double tom holder. You can see the original 4 holes from the rail type tom mount, as well as the adapter for the cymbal stand, still attached to the BD. The mounted tom, plus floor tom are missing the muffler assemblies.

To a collector, this may be the kiss of death. But assuming a similar set, in original condition, is worth $1000,

how much does drilling the bass drum reduce the set value? 10%, 50%, 75% ????

Pics and more details would help.

• Does this set have the keystone badge or the green/blue badge?
  
• Are the interiors white, speckled, or natural wood finish?
  
• What hardware is mounted on the bass drum now?
  
• How many pieces? Sounds like it's a bass with two toms.
  
• What hardware is included, both mounted on the bass and toms and any pedals, hi-hat, etc.?
  
• Does it include a snare drum and if so, what kind?
  
• What wrap or finish is the kit and what condition is it?
  
• Are the pearl/sparkle inlays in the bass drum hoops intact?
  
• Overall condition?
  
• Asking price?
  
• What is your intention: Collecting, playing, parting out?
  

I think the consolette rail tom holder was dropped by the late '60s, so this may be an earlier one. That's one reason I want to know the badge type and interior finish, which indicates which woods were used in the shell construction.

In general, I'd think that if this was a $1K kit in original condition, the drilling for a disappearing TT holder might knock the value down to $750 but no more if it was professionally done. The '60s Ludwigs are great sounding drums whether they've been drilled aftermarket or not. If the bass-mounted cymbal holder for the bracket and/or the consolette holder were still available, the parts value would restore some of the loss to the drilling. Does it have the disappearing TT holder or just a big hole there? Is there a second tom for the double tom holder?

[Scooter]

True collectors are picky. REALLY picky. Extra holes are indeed the "kiss of death" to a true collector. Some collectors will even pass on a kit just because the hardware was polished with an abrasive media at some point.

However, the guys who /play/ the drums usually don't mind a replaced mount. As for the value of a 60's Luddy, it depends on the color and the sizes.

If it had a rail consolette and bass drum cymbal mount, then it surely has Keystone badges. Are there serial number on the badges?

[Turdus]

Thanks for the replies Gents. My intentions are that I am looking for a set for my 12 year old son, who has expressed interest in a kit. I know a fair amount about US drums, but not their values.

This is a private seller, not a store. I looked over the kit for about 30 minutes but I was turned off by the drilled tom mount. I'm not a collector, but I'd want to get my $$ out of it, if my son changes his mind in a month. The asking price was $800, and here's what I recall:

* The drums are blue sparkle

* The BD, one tom, and floor tom are keystone, with S/N, and white interiors. Drums are missing mufflers.

* The BD appears professionally drilled for a 70's Ludwig dual tom mount., which is included. The original rail mount is missing. The BD legs are the ones that fold sideways up against the drum. I've seen this on a Ringo kit. The BD rings are wood, with sparkle insert, but I don't recall that color... silver perhaps?

* There's an additional blue/olive badge tom... thus the dual tom mount, I'm sure. This drum has the muffler

* The snare is a 6 lug blue sparkle, keystone, but the muffler knob can't be original. Looks unlike anything Ludwig I've ever seen. Kinda cheap plastic look.

* has a Speed King, and a similar vintage hihat stand. Has 2 non matching cymbal stands that look old, but I did not catch the brand.

* Has new beat hihat cymbals + what looks like a nice Zildjian "A" ride... 20". Also has a Ludwig cymbal

I actually know the guy that this seller got the set from many years ago. I know for a fact that this guy used to assemble kits, from parts, and assemble them to sell... Not necessarily for profit, but to get decent playable kits out there. So this is most likely one of those deals.

Maybe the set is a good deal... it is clean, but could use all new heads, etc. The drilled bass drum, and missing mufflers concerned me. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

[Lockbody]

It doesn't sound very "collectible", but you'd be hard pressed to buy a decent Hecho en China shell pack for 800 smackers, much less a full Ludwig kit with some A Series cymbals and a Speed King pedal.

I'd say go for it.

[Scooter]

Blue sparkle is one of the least valuable - but cool. Not a single valuable piece there. Not worth $800.

[JohnnyB]

There are things in favor and things against. From a collector's standpoint, the aftermarket dual tom mount and blue/olive badge 3rd tom, and missing mufflers would be deal-killers. With all those intact (with rail consolette tom holder and bass-mounted cymbal holder) the kit w/o cymbals would be worth $1500+ I would think. So many people threw away those rail consolettes (I lost mine) and bass-mounted cymbal stands that the genuine Ludwig ones can fetch $100-150 each now.

In this kit's favor, however, the keystone/ser.no. badged drums with white interiors are from Ludwig's legendary period, the mid-'60s. These shells are made of African mahogany and poplar with rock maple reinforcing rings. They have a big, resonant, musical sound that sits well in mixes. These are the drums of Hal Blaine, Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker, Ringo Starr, etc. The sound is iconic like a P-Bass from the same era. Bonuses are the Zildjian cymbals. A good condition (without cracks or excess keyholing) mid-'60s Avedis Zildjian 20" ride cymbal should be worth around $150 as should the New Beat hi-hats. That's $300, and that leaves the question, are the remaining drums and hardware worth $500? I'd say they're in the ballpark--$300-600. It's a decent value but not a drop dead deal. You wouldn't get new drums and cymbals with that sound and richness for $800. Offer him $650.

The Ludwig-branded cymbal is a mid-level Paiste. It's no A. Zildjian but it'd make an OK crash.

[Turdus]

Was able to discuss this with drummer from my band also. He agrees that the set is overpriced.

Thanks for the great input.

[Turdus]

I ended up buying this set for a great price.

Researched the S/N's, and here's what I came up with:

Snare: keystone, no S/N. 1963 ink stamp on inside

BD: keystone, 1963 S/N

9x13: keystone, 1964 S/N

16x16: keystone, 1964 S/N

8x12: B/O badge, 1969

All the hardware is old ludwig, plus what looks like an early Rogers "Memriloc" cymbal stand.

3 nice Zildjians, plus 1 Ludwig/Paiste cymbal not in such great shape.

I'm gonna clean these bittys up, and do some serious whacking, lol.

[JohnnyB]

I ended up buying this set for a great price.

Researched the S/N's, and here's what I came up with:

Snare: keystone, no S/N. 1963 ink stamp on inside

BD: keystone, 1963 S/N

9x13: keystone, 1964 S/N

16x16: keystone, 1964 S/N

8x12: B/O badge, 1969

All the hardware is old ludwig, plus what looks like an early Rogers "Memriloc" cymbal stand.

3 nice Zildjians, plus 1 Ludwig/Paiste cymbal not in such great shape.

I'm gonna clean these bittys up, and do some serious whacking, lol.

That's what I was saying. There is a lot of great vintage gear in that kit, most of it from a matched set, and the only downside being the addition of a telescoping twin-tom holder, a VERY common aftermarket mod. You can get period correct Ludwig drum mufflers cheap on eBay.

So how much did you score all this for? Like I said, the Zildjian ride and New Beat hats are worth $300 easy. In fact, I spotted a same-era 20" ride alone for $250.

Congratulations. This is going to be a great sounding kit, the drum functional equivalent of a pre-CBS P-bass or Strat. You could drive yourself nuts trying to find a modern kit at any price that will approach these. I have a kit made up of vintage Slingerland drums that I recovered with a matching wrap I made myself. The bass drum is a 1958 all-original 14x22 (small by today's standards) made of the same mahogany/poplar shell laminate as the 1963-4 drums in your kit. I tried every bass drum at my local Guitar Center and the only one that approached the volume of this little Slingerland beast was a much larger (20x24) Yamaha priced somewhere near $1K for the bass drum alone. Those mahogany/poplar shells are cannons!

[Turdus]

Thanks JB! I got it for under $600. I figure I'll spend several hundred more for new heads, some newer hardware, and a couple good crash cymbals. I'm not sure who is more excited; me or my son, lol.

[JohnnyB]

Thanks JB! I got it for under $600. I figure I'll spend several hundred more for new heads, some newer hardware, and a couple good crash cymbals. I'm not sure who is more excited; me or my son, lol.

I don't know that you'll need to spend that much (well, maybe if you want a fancy hi-hat and double pedal). PM me if you want some shopping tips. If you can take pics so I can see the years and quality of the hardware that'll help. I owned a 1965 Ludwig Super Classic. I'm pretty familiar with the WFL/Ludwig drums and hardware of that period.

Although many more advanced designs came along later, the Ludwig Speed King is STILL in production, and Buddy Rich alternated between a Speed King and a Rogers Swiv-o-matic (which was designed specifically for him) until the very end. Speed Kings often need the springs to be cleaned and then re-greased. I got one at a pawn shop for $12. The original grease was all dried up but I was able to lube it up and get it running again.

When you factor in the vintage Zildjian cymbals and relatively intact shells (and just how damn good those shells sound), you got a good deal. A lot of mid-'60s kits are missing their bottom heads, hoops, and tension rods. They're available, but it's a PITA to get them, and expensive and a difficult match on the bass drum hoop. It was so fashionable by around 1969 to remove the front head of the bass drum and a lot of them never got their hoops and rods back.