Blackface and Tweed

[salem]

Hi. I've been studying amps recently and I love the companies that make clones of the great, vintage Blackface and Tweed amps.

I've never had a chance to listen to these original Fender amps. What would you say is the difference in tone between Blackface and Tweed amps. Does each have a distinctive sound?

[El Kabong]

LOL, you have to be trolling. I thought you ordered a Clark?

Tweed vs. black face? Bah! What about the brown circuits? Did the white tolexed ones actually have smoother tone? What about black face vs. silver face? Wide panel vs. narrow panel tweed? Jensens, Oxford's or Utahs? Did transition era Fender amps sound any different, or was it just the white knobs?

Tony Bruno does tweed and blackface. They aren't cheap. Some swear by them and others say that they are no different than their old amp that they have had for 30 odd years. Should it sound the same as an original, or have cork sniffin' adjectives?

http://www.brunoamps.com/amplist.htm

It doesn't matter which one you chose in the end. You will still sound like yourself, be it good or bad. After about a month, it will just be your amp and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

[tgoss]

You've got to remember that up to a certain point in amplifier history, engineers were trying to make it cleaner, louder and more effecient. Distortion was not their aim back then. Tweed and blackface circuits differ tremendously. I doubt if it would possible to sum up all the differences here. Some of them are that the tweeds had a different tone circuit which was usuall one knob. Blackfaces had 2, usually 3 and was considerably cleaner because you're actually losing signal in a blackface tone circuit.

The single knob tone has more midrange 'cause all you're doing is rolling off highs or lows. More feedback was used in BF circuits too, which returns a portion of the speaker output to the (usually) phase inverter which helped smooth out an amp. Amps with little or no feedback sound "wide open". BF's sound, well, smoother.

Many other changes were made as well. What I've pointed out is very generalized. There were variations in the tone circuits along the way too.

The best thing to do is find somebody who's got these amps and listen. Maybe you know someone who works on tube amps who would let you hang out and hear these things for yourself.

The technical aspects could take up pages.

[jsbabinec]

There is a video/dvd called "Get That Classic Fender Sound" featuring Jim Weider that you can get here Fender Sound Video .

Of course it is only a video and won't sound the same as a screaming amp in your living room but it will give you an idea of what the different amps sound like. The video features guitars and amps with perhaps an emphasis on amps and has some instruction. I think that it still should be helpful to someone wondering about 50-60s Fenders. I haven't watched the video for a while but I remember plenty of tweed amps. I'm pretty sure that the blackface amps are covered also but I'm not certain. That is a good excuse for me to watch this video again.

[edgar_allan_poe]

There is a video/dvd called "Get That Classic Fender Sound" featuring Jim Weider that you can get here Fender Sound Video .

IIRC...Weider wound up buying a Fargen Bordeaux recently. This was *after* he attended a huge amp shootout held by a member of the Gear Page which had just about every cork sniffer amp known to man....including the Allen and the Clark.

[salem]

in reply to:

"I doubt if it would possible to sum up all the differences here. Some of them are that the tweeds had a different tone circuit which was usuall one knob. Blackfaces had 2, usually 3 and was considerably cleaner because you're actually losing signal in a blackface tone circuit."

Interesting. On Allen's Blackface replicas, there is a "raw" control which when turned up, gradually bypasses the tone controls. So this might be the best of both world between a tweed and a blackface.I feel if I can have one good tweed clone and one good blackface clone, I'll be set.

I have a Clark on order, now, I might order an Allen.

[bobbymack]

In my experience Clark blows Allen away, just my opinion fwiw...

The Clark Piedmont with 3 knob reverb and Weber Blue Pups is one of the finest sounding Fender clean tones I've ever heard. Rich, detailed, resonant.

[BadgerDave]

One thing you may want to consider;

You can usually buy a real tweed or Blackface Fender in excellent condition for about the same price as a new Boutique clone. The next day, the Fender will be worth what you paid, the clone will be worth half to 2/3 at best.

There are plenty of great BF Deluxe Reverbs, Vibrolux Reverbs and Pro Reverbs out there in the $2,000 to $2,500 range, cheaper if you don't mind changed speakers, and/or cosmetic wear.

If I were buying new, I'd take a serious look at the Fender '57 RI Tweed "lo-power" Twin. It straddles the gap between Tweed and Blackface (minimal tone circuit, pull one rectifier tube to go from tweed sag to BF lesser sag). I was fortunate enough to find one used. Stunningly good tone. If they're good enough for Eric Clapton . . .

[El Kabong]

You might be sorry if you order an Allen. My friend ordered an Accomplice 2 years ago. It's one of the worst amps I have heard in my life. All the fit and finish visually is top notch. But it it sounds like a Roland Bolt 60 with tin foil covering the driver. If you want black face sound, the smart money is on a Fargen Blackbird.

[salem]

You might be sorry if you order an Allen. My friend ordered an Accomplice 2 years ago. It's one of the worst amps I have heard in my life. All the fit and finish visually is top notch. But it it sounds like a Roland Bolt 60 with tin foil covering the driver. If you want black face sound, the smart money is on a Fargen Blackbird.

Thanks for the heads up El Kabong, I'm looking into Fargen right now. There is a Blackbird 20 watt with 6v6 available from "musictoyz." Is this a reliable place?

[edgar_allan_poe]

Thanks for the heads up El Kabong, I'm looking into Fargen right now. There is a Blackbird 20 watt with 6v6 available from "musictoyz." Is this a reliable place?

Yes...but why not give Ben a call and make sure that the amp is exactly what you want. He is a wonderful listener, and gives his customers what they want.

[salem]

Thanks for the heads up El Kabong, I'm looking into Fargen right now. There is a Blackbird 20 watt with 6v6 available from "musictoyz." Is this a reliable place?

Yes...but why not give Ben a call and make sure that the amp is exactly what you want. He is a wonderful listener, and gives his customers what they want.

It's hard to get a handle on Fargen amps. There are different color and speaker options for the Blackbird, none of which are detailed or explained on the Fargen website. It's good when everything is spelled out and listed for each model so you can get a grasp of everything.

[edgar_allan_poe]

It's hard to get a handle on Fargen amps. There are different color and speaker options for the Blackbird, none of which are detailed or explained on the Fargen website. It's good when everything is spelled out and listed for each model so you can get a grasp of everything.

There is a reason for that. Ben is a small shop and will do what you want him to do, within reason. Just because an option is not listed, doesn't mean he will not do it. Seriously, give him a call, he is a great guy. Do it that way and get your answers straight from the horses mouth. Tell him that Rob Tennant from Pittsburgh sent you.

[Jeff R]

It doesn't matter which one you chose in the end. You will still sound like yourself, be it good or bad. After about a month, it will just be your amp and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Zactly.

And Poe, have you considered hooking Fargen and Schlabotnik up for lunch one day, just to see where the creative minds might drift?

[tombo]

FYI, Michael Clark does Blackface too! Check out his Belmont!

Also, what El Kabong said about the Allen is true. One of the worst amps I've ever heard.