Stupid question about direct outs live....

[SteveB]

So, I just bought a Tech21 TM60, and I gotta say its a killer sounding little combo. However I have a question about the direct out on it, or for that matter on a number of amp direct outs ( sansamp, Line6, Mesa, etc) over the years. Since they all exhibit the same behaviour to me, I'm guessing I don't understand enough about live sound to know whats going on.

In any case, I can dial in a great distorted tone from the TM60, but when I send it via DI to my recording hardware it sounds uber buzzy and thin. Same kinda thing happened with my POD Pro and it's DI which was "optimized for live sound". So the question is, is this basically the sound that is also sent from a mic'ed amp, and the sound engineers just know how to properly EQ the thing out? I can get a good sound to the recorder by dialing down the gain and bumping the mids a bit, but how is this handled on a live situation where you want the amp to sound good and the DI's to the board to sound good?

[Hamer Bass Head]

I've always had the sam probem with my bass sound....I suspect it's it's the eq compounded by a ground loop problem causing additional noise. One of these days I am going to take an xlr cable and cut the ground wire on one end and see....

[JJ Paul]

Sorry TG... there is just no way a direct output can sound like the sum of:

speaker specs (dimension, stiffness, etc), cone-amp interaction, phase relationships between direct and reflected sound.

I will add the fact that *recorded* sounds are also "polluted" by the recording and mixing structure itself (analog v/s digital, outboard used, etc).

THere are some interesting tools out there that simulate the "sound" of a cab.

I used to have a Hughes & Kettner Red Box which worked pretty good. ADA had a thingamajic called "Ampulator". IIRC Palmer had one too.

The Red Box was connected to the speaker and to the speaker out and the DI was connected via XLR connection. It was powered either by a 9V battery or by 48V phantom and could be switched between 2 presets: 2x10" or 4x12".

Cheers,

JJ

[Hamer95USA]

Sorry TG... there is just no way a direct output can sound like the sum of:

speaker specs (dimension, stiffness, etc), cone-amp interaction, phase relationships between direct and reflected sound.

I will add the fact that *recorded* sounds are also "polluted" by the recording and mixing structure itself (analog v/s digital, outboard used, etc).

THere are some interesting tools out there that simulate the "sound" of a cab.

I used to have a Hughes & Kettner Red Box which worked pretty good. ADA had a thingamajic called "Ampulator". IIRC Palmer had one too.

The Red Box was connected to the speaker and to the speaker out and the DI was connected via XLR connection. It was powered either by a 9V battery or by 48V phantom and could be switched between 2 presets: 2x10" or 4x12".

Cheers,

JJ

Hey JJPaul and Turbo Gerbil,

I use the Red Box Pro. It's the same thing without the batteries.

Guitar George

[kurtsstuff]

Best direct to board outs are on the Marshall JMP-1 preamp hands down....nuthin better

[md2020]

but when I send it via DI to my recording hardware it sounds uber buzzy and thin.

My 2 cents: I go TM60 -> mixer -> sound card and things seem fine. I usually defeat the TM60 speaker and monitor via the mixer. I live in a high rise, so good direct outs make good neighbors.

[SteveB]

seems like a bit of false advertising if manufacturers are saying "go direct to board with this DI" when it seems that you need a cabsim to make it sound good. I've done that before, using a Behringer DI box with CABsim.

[darc]

Hey TG. It's definitely not a case of the mic sending a similar signal to the board, where sound guys work some kind of magic. A mic'd cab always sounds best, owing to the low-pass EQ, compression, and resonant characteristics of the cab, the angle/distance between the mic and cab, and all the same again for the mic itself. (Though, ideally, you hope your mic is much closer to neutral than your cab ever would be.)

I think it is *very much* a case of false advertising where the T21 products are concerned (although I think their products are great just the same) in that I hear no evidence of "cabinet modeling" per se on their direct outs, whatsoever. In the case of the Line 6 POD etc the marked low-pass response curve and some other effects are present to approximate a cabinet, but the fact remains that nothing beats or even meets the real thing as yet.

By my limited experience, the best speaker simulation you can buy is in Native Instruments Guitar Rig. But since this is an all-software solution, it is not practical for all applications. It's a hopeful sign for what we might be seeing in modeling amps in the next couple of years, though.

[SteveB]

In the case of the Line 6 POD etc the marked low-pass response curve and some other effects are present to approximate a cabinet, but the fact remains that nothing beats or even meets the real thing as yet.

I never had a problem with Line6 in "studio mode" running to PA, but I remember thinking that the "PA optimized" direct out of the POD/Pro in "live mode" sounded bad, much like the other DI's I mentioned. I keep thinkng there must be a secret to this since alot of people seem to think the DI's from say the Sansamps or TM60's work well. Or maybe everyone is just using the clean channel, which might sound fine through the DI's. In theory the DI's on the TM60 are supposed to have some speaker and cab sim I think.

[darc]

Makes sense since IIRC, the "live mode" was intended to be run into a speaker cab - basically you were turning a good part of the cab sim off in that mode. I personally preferred the curve of "studio mode" for both set ups, but it would make sense that live mode would present the same difficulties as a sans amp would.

I don't really understand how people are getting satisfactory results w/ T21 direct outs unless they're cutting all the highs, and then filling the room with a lot of the on-stage (ie guitar cab) volume to compensate for the comprimised FOH tone.

[SteveB]

Makes sense since IIRC, the "live mode" was intended to be run into a speaker cab -

with the POD PRO, "live mode" set the 1/4" outs to go to a power amp with speaker cab, while the XLR's were supposed to have a "PA optimized" signal so you didn't have to mic the cab. I could never actually get that to work well though.

[pesocaster]

For live stuff I've tried a TON of DI's to board...... and IMO I think they all sound like ass compared to a mic'ed speaker.....

Just get an SM57, stand and a good quality 50-foot XLR cable and be done with it.... Really

[darc]

As much as I come off as a high-tech junkie, I agree w/ peso on this one. Even a poorly placed mic sounds better than the DO's on existing amps. IMO Direct outs are primarily useful in the studio, where reproducability of an exact tone (for overdubs, reamping etc.) is an asset.