Daytona Pots

[Ting Ho Dung]

I have a stock Daytona that came with EMG SV pickups which I'm assuming, like other EMG active pickups, use 25k pots. I'm wanting to switch to Fender Texas Specials which I'm assuming would use 250k pots. Is that what Hamer put in the Daytona's with Duncan pickups? Would I be better off looking for Hamer pots or just use CTX? Should I use audio taper or linier taper? What cap should I use? And while I'm at it, should I shield the pick guard and cavities? Is the aluminum tape sold at ACE as good as the expensive copper tape I'd have to order from a specialty shop? Someone a while back mentioned it's better to use some sort of paint in the cavities. Has Hamer already done that for me? If not, should I do that? And last but not least, I know I'm going to have to add a ground wire to the tremalo claw. Should I ground it to the back of one of the pots?

Thanks very much for your help,

--Michael

[morningstar]

A bunch of the dealers on here should have the real deal . I got mine from Greg at BCR. I think but can't swear the stock pups were Duncan SSL-1 maybe SSL-2.

[velorush]

My personal formula for Texas Specials (and I love them) was developed in the Strat that Punkavenger now owns. I'm no expert, but I think Punkavenger would agree, this worked for me:

1. 250k pots - yes. It is my understanding that Hamer pots are all 500k (I could easily be wrong on that, but that is my recollection - someone will chime in to confirm or deny). 500k pots with true single coils would (at least in my opinion and shared by many) be too bright. You'll want one audio taper (volume) and two linear taper (tone 1 and tone 2). I like CTS, but others may have a better suggestion - I know RoyB at RS Guitar sells a kit with his Superpots - those, in 500k, did a fine job for my Gibson upgrade a few years ago.
   
2. Cap - with the Texas Specials, I liked a 0.022µF orange drop.
   
3. If it is a stock Daytona body, I'm betting the routing is shielded with the conductive paint Hamer uses. Let someone confirm that (as I've never owned a Daytona). If that's the case, get yourself one of the old-style aluminum (al-you-MIN-e-um for BennyBoy) backing plates for the pickguard, tie it to the shielded paint and you're shielded. If it's not shielded in the routes, I used copper sheeting from Monte Allums - it's thicker and seemed to work great (use some gloves as this stuff will definitely slice little cuts in your fingertips).
   
4. Yes, you're going to need to attach a ground wire to the claw - attach this to the ground on the pickguard - I prefer star grounding (all grounds meet in one point) to eliminate noisy ground loops.
   
5. Two other things: a. I used a Lindy Fralin baseplate on the bridge pickup. Jason Lollar says he can't hear a difference and his ears are much better than mine (to a similar degree that the universe is larger than a parsnip), but I think it made a difference on mine. b. I tied the second tone knob to the bridge pickup rather than the middle pickup. These two mods really made the bridge position come alive - best Strat bridge position I've ever had or played in anyone else's Strat.
   
6. Lastly, TS' are really sensitive to height adjustment. I think many of the people that don't like them could have them set too high. I ran the neck nearly lowered to the pickguard, the middle just slightly higher than that and the bridge as high as I could get it and still get good 2nd position quack (which really wasn't that high).
   

Hope all this helps. The questions that remain, however, are 1. did Hamer ever produce 250k pots for their single coil guitars? and 2. did Hamer shield the control/pickup routes in Daytonas?

Here's my (former) black 1997 Am Std Roadhouse Strat that went to the west coast. I opted to kept the green VHRRI - it's waiting on me to buy a few more parts to replace the 57/62 pickups with a set of Wilde Bill's:

[Ting Ho Dung]

Thanks for the detailed info, I'll follow your instructions. One question, how does the value of the cap affect the tone? If I go down to a .01 uF which I think is in some of my hamers what happens? Then there is the .44uF that others use.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

[velorush]

I'll try to choose my words carefully (because it matters how this is stated): the value of the capacitor determines at what point in the frequency spectrum sound is shunted to ground.

That said, the Hamer traditional 0.01 µF cap shunts to ground from a higher point (and up) in the frequency spectrum (leaving more treble sound than a cap of higher value). Moving to the traditional Gibby cap value of 0.02 µF yields a bit darker tone control and so on. Early Fenders used 0.10 µF (not a typo of 0.01 as in Hamer) and then later eased up to 0.047µF.

The other side of this is the 'valve' allowing these treble frequencies to move to ground (i.e., out of the signal): the tone potentiometer. A commonly held misconception is that the value of the cap/pot doesn't matter if the Tone control is left on '10.' This is wrong (with one exception*) as there are still treble frequencies being shunted to ground, it is, however, only the small amount overcoming the resistance of the potentiometer at its maximum (say, 500k Ohms). This can be used to advantage as a 250k tone control (on 10) will yield a darker sound than a 500k tone control (on 10) - more treble is being shunted to ground. As Armitage pointed out in a very well documented but much argued thread some time back, a 500k (linear taper) pot at 5 will yield the same tone as a 250k tone control on 10, so how the tone control is used is important, too.

The one exception(*) to this is the 'no-load' pot that takes itself out of the circuit at the extreme end of the sweep. That is tantamount to having no tone control in the circuit - a brighter sound.

All this can be used to tune the tonality of a guitar and pickup combinations. My most recent Hamer acquisition was a guitar dogged with the reputation of being too bright ("like an anvil being thrown through a plate glass window"). A change of the 0.01µF capacitor to a 0.22µF capacitor solved the issue splendidly. Caps are cheap and are a fun way to experiment and tune the guitar/pickup combination.

I yield the balance of my time to the floor and reserve the right to be corrected, amend my comments or deny them all together.

[Ting Ho Dung]

Very informative. You've been most helpful. Thanks so much.

[Armitage]

... As Armitage pointed out in a very well documented but much argued thread some time back, a 500k (linear taper) pot at 5 will yield the same tone as a 250k tone control on 10, so how the tone control is used is important, too.

The one exception(*) to this is the 'no-load' pot that takes itself out of the circuit at the extreme end of the sweep. That is tantamount to having no tone control in the circuit - a brighter sound.

And I just wanted to point out here too, that it is NOT the same with a volume pot. They're wired in the circuit quite differently, and a 500k volume pot on 5 is not at all the same as a 250k volume pot on ten.

[Ting Ho Dung]

That brings up a very good question to me. What is the difference in a 250k pot and a 500k pot in the volume position in the typical Strat style arrangement?

[Armitage]

My usual FAQ:

Different pot values and how they affect you!

Humbucker graph shown.

Humbuckers traditionally come with 500k volume and tone pots, with .022 caps. Single coils traditionally use 250k pots. Remember, pickups were voiced/made to run at these values, changing the value changes their intended tone, (good or bad is an opinion), as well as their output.

The top curve indicates virtually no load, the second curve down indicates a 1meg pot, the third down is a 500k pot, the fourth is a 250k pot and the bottom curve represents a 100k pot. As you can see, higher pots give you more output and raise the resonant peaks output. The resonant peak doesn't shift in frequency, but it does shift in amplitude. The resonant peak frequency of most HBs is usually around 5k to 7k. Gibson went to 300k pots in the early '80s to fatten up the tone of their guitars.

Simply put, using a higher value give you more output, but usually makes it quite a bit brighter.

With tone controls (they react differently then volume pots because of the way they're wired in the circuit), a 250k pot is the same as turning your 500k tone pot down to it's resistive mid point (5 on a linear taper pot). Even on 10, a tone pot bleeds high end to ground, but pickups were designed in this circuit in mind, and some people think they sound cold and glassy without a tone pot in the circuit, some people can't tell a difference.

If you want to see what it's like to use different value pots, without pulling breakable knobs and changing out your pots, here's a temporary way just to see what it's like.

This is how you can hear what going from a 250k to 500k (or even 500k to 1 Meg) volume pot sounds like. Just disconnect the pickups input wire to the pot and put a 250k (or close 240k or 270k), (or to try 1 Meg, 500k or close), resistor in series. It'll sound the same, but you CAN'T turn the volume all the way off, remember this is just a test function. You can also try doing it to your tone pot as shown. Before going to the tone pot, insert a 250k resistor to go from 250k to 500k. If you like it, go buy the pots.

In many guitars with 250k tone pots, I've just left the resistor in permanently; you just can't turn it down as much as if you had used an actual 500k tone pot, but it helps keep some guitars brighter.

This is how you can hear what going from a 500k pot down to a 250k volume and tone pot sounds like. Just put a 500k (or close, e.g. 510k or 470k) resistor in parallel with the pots outer lugs. You can actually even leave it this way, the only difference will be the volume and tone pots taper (i.e. 10 will be 10, 0 will be 0, but it'll be half as loud at a different place on the knob).

You use audio pots, instead of linear, because the ear isn't linear with volume, and audio pots (also known as log pots) are designed to match the way you hear. Of course distortion and compression can mess that up...

P.S. if your "or close" value is slightly higher then the pot, the value will be slightly higher on 10 then the actual double, (or halved value) in these circuits. If lower, it'll be slightly lower.

Expensive pots sound the same as cheap pots as long as they're the correct value (the actual measured value, not the stated value). And changing brands of pots does NOTHING as long as they measure the same. Pots are not capacitive and are not reactive (certainly not in the audio range)... but pots that claim to be a certain value can be 20% off, and that makes a difference, so measure them. Especially if the ones you take out are 20% low and the ones going in are 20% high, you may very well hear that. Of course quality pots last longer, make less noise when you turn them... and can feel better... but the same exact measured value will sound identical... because it is.

[velorush]

You see what I did there, Michael?

I knew the real expert was within earshot and I lured him in with a correct, but incomplete, explanation!

Thanks Armitage! I hoped you would post that - the complete explanation!

That brings up a very good question to me. What is the difference in a 250k pot and a 500k pot in the volume position in the typical Strat style arrangement?

Extending the explanation more specifically to this question, Armitage pointed out the resonant peak of most humbuckers is in the 5k Hz to 7k Hz range. Realize that the resonant peak of most traditional Strat pickups is in the 8k Hz to 10k Hz range (check out this chart from SD). Now take that chart Armitage posted showing the effects of different potentiometers on the amplitude of frequencies. Note the difference between the third (500k) and fourth (250k) graphs - see how much smoother across all frequencies the 250k line is? It sounds that way, too. Strats tend to be trebly and spikey, anyway. Drop in a 500k pot and that 10k Hz gets bumped up in amplitude a good bit over your other frequencies and suddenly your ears are bleeding at all volumes.

On another note, the original Esquires came with 1Meg Ohm pots and 0.10µF capacitors. I've never played one, but I think that would be an interesting combination. My old '56 Silvertone Danelectro had 1Meg Ohm pots in it and a couple of monster-sized caps... but I can't remember the cap value; sounded great though. Maybe GusS will chime in and remind me.

[Ting Ho Dung]

Thanks for your help guys. It's good stuff to know.