Trying out a Victory V4 preamp, dealing with a big unknown

[HamerHokie]

Victory Amps sells floor preamp versions of each of their amps.  I am trying out The Copper, which is their version of an AC30.  They also have The Sherriff, which is a Plexi, etc etc.

The way this works is, you put it in the effects loop and connect it in such a way that The Copper preamp takes over as the amp's preamp.  In effect, you can turn any amp with an effects loop into a version of The Copper.  As you can see it has two channels with two masters, one normal and one treble boosted.

The question then becomes, how does its performance vary from amp to amp - specifically, does it vary much between different EL84 amps.  I emailed Victory's tech support and got this response:

"Power amps are generally relatively similar in guitar amplifier topologies. The tubes found in the power stage can provide their own characteristics when ran at high volumes, but the main “voice” of an amplifier comes through from the preamp. As the preamp in this case is the V4 Copper, I wouldn’t imagine there would be a huge amount of difference, but with a lot of tube amplifiers there are tolerances and impedances that are going to differ from unit to unit, so it may not sound completely identical through various EL84 power sections."

So by his reasoning, it should sound pretty much the same whether I use it with an AC30, a Dr Z Maz, an Orange OR15, etc. Does this sound reasonable/accurate?  He wants me to try it out with lots of amps and report on the results - not gonna happen, but I might try out a few.

 

[Travis]

10 hours ago, HamerHokie said:

Victory Amps sells floor preamp versions of each of their amps.  I am trying out The Copper, which is their version of an AC30.  They also have The Sherriff, which is a Plexi, etc etc.

The way this works is, you put it in the effects loop and connect it in such a way that The Copper preamp takes over as the amp's preamp.  In effect, you can turn any amp with an effects loop into a version of The Copper.  As you can see it has two channels with two masters, one normal and one treble boosted.

The question then becomes, how does its performance vary from amp to amp - specifically, does it vary much between different EL84 amps.  I emailed Victory's tech support and got this response:

"Power amps are generally relatively similar in guitar amplifier topologies. The tubes found in the power stage can provide their own characteristics when ran at high volumes, but the main “voice” of an amplifier comes through from the preamp. As the preamp in this case is the V4 Copper, I wouldn’t imagine there would be a huge amount of difference, but with a lot of tube amplifiers there are tolerances and impedances that are going to differ from unit to unit, so it may not sound completely identical through various EL84 power sections."

So by his reasoning, it should sound pretty much the same whether I use it with an AC30, a Dr Z Maz, an Orange OR15, etc. Does this sound reasonable/accurate?  He wants me to try it out with lots of amps and report on the results - not gonna happen, but I might try out a few.

 

Hmm…. That sounds really interesting. Kind of like the idea of the Synergy system using preamp modules to have access to a variety of different types of amps.  Will be looking into these more…

[murkat]

21 hours ago, HamerHokie said:

So by his reasoning, it should sound pretty much the same whether I use it with an AC30, a Dr Z Maz, an Orange OR15, etc. Does this sound reasonable/accurate?

Kinda accurate. Power (tube) amp section needs to be turned up in order to get the goods out of as well as each character of.

11 hours ago, Travis said:

Kind of like the idea of the Synergy system

Egnater/ Randall re popularized by synergy. I have a synergy system, works great. the modals that are presently made are very nice and represent there intentions fairly well.

[JGale]

Not sure what the question is, but I'll conjecture answer.

My experience in tube swapping among octals is with a London Power amp. 6V6 to KT66. It's a bit of a sonic microscope that amp. I notice a difference at low volumes, bass, mids and highs resolve differently with different tubes, but not so much I'd declare an entirely different amp out of each. Clean headroom for each construction differs and as you push up the volume you begin to infringe on the clean envelope invoking non-linearity in the tube response, which adds to the flavor of the signal. More volume, less headroom, signal compromised, more flavor added.

The power section does amplify the preamp output and that's where significant non-linearity is either added to or denied, by the preamp topology. If Kevin O'Conner is to be believed there is damn little variation in component selection/distribution in a preamp than the hype would have you believe.

Swap 100K anode resistors to 220K resistors to go from typical F to typical M response patterns. It is smoke and mirrors more than hype. Starve this, feed that and it sqwaks harder. For tinkles, do the following...

If your amp has a loop, plug your preamp in to the Return jack and go to town. Turn down the preamp controls, leave the preamp tubes in.

[tbonesullivan]

6 hours ago, murkat said:

Egnater/ Randall re popularized by synergy. I have a synergy system, works great. the modals that are presently made are very nice and represent there intentions fairly well.

The backwards compatibility is really nice. Kinda makes me think about getting one again, but I can see how quickly I'd be down the rabbit hole, hunting down obscure modules from years ago. The amps they make for them are definitely interesting, though I do wonder why the 30 watter needs 4 preamp tubes in addition to what's in the modules. The 50 watter has 3 extra preamp tubes, and neither of them has reverb or anything like that.

[murkat]

Moore Tube engine, el84 mono power amp.

[HamerHokie]

23 hours ago, JGale said:

Not sure what the question is, but I'll conjecture answer.

The question was, if the V4 is taking over preamp duties, would there be much difference between different EL84 amps - Orange, Vox, Dr Z, etc.  You are addressing whether there would be much difference between totally different power sections - EL84 vs 6L6 vs 6V6 etc.  I think that is an interesting question as well.  When my THD gets back from the shop I will be able to test the V4 with an EL34 amp.  In the meantime I'm looking for an EL84 amp on the cheap - I'm seeing used H&K 20 watt EL84 combos in the $400 range.

[JGale]

Can't answer the EL84 amp question. I only have access to one, a Mooer Tube Engine. Very slight difference between tube manufacturers in that device.  Surprised that it does Fender cleans well using a SAÑSAMP preamp. The OEM Chinese EL84s are quite nice (OEM 12AX7s not so much).

I would conjecture that you will notice differences in power sections more in clean settings and if something bothers you with gain, EQ and/or a tube swap will get you where you want to be. Don't overlook the speaker's and cabinet's contribution either. 

Another possibility is a Quilter. They have effects loops. At least one inmate is using a pedal preamp that way for live events. 0 to 200 watts available, plus the optional full Quilter palette.

There is a Meesa Boogie 20/20 for $600 on reverb. Cheapest I have seen one. That's a nice power section. I'll keep an eye out for ya. I love small amp heads.

[HamerHokie]

2 hours ago, murkat said:

Moore Tube engine, el84 mono power amp.

The V4 units work with power amps as well.  The only EL84 power amps I can find are old Marshall or Mesa 20/20s, which are expensive.

 

EDIT - I just figured out what you were suggesting.  The only drawback to that is the Mooer unit is class A/B.  It might be worth a try though.

[HamerHokie]

I had a Mooer Tube Engine delivered this week, and I'm pretty impressed with it.

With the Copper it sounds very good through a Celestion V30. The treble boost channel is not as aggressive as I thought it would be.  

I also A-B tested it with my Mesa TA15.  The normal channel of the Copper is nearly identical to the Top Boost channel of the TA15.  Gainwise, the max gain of the Copper's normal channel is equal to the TA15 with the gain turned up about halfway.  Not an issue for me since I stack gain pedals.

I think the next thing I'll do is pick up the V4 Sheriff, which is the plexi version of the preamp, and compare it with the Copper.  I could conceivably use both in a pedalboard.

[JGale]

The Chinese EL84s in the Mooer are decent. The 12AX_s are not. V1 is a 12AT7 I replaced with a 5751, a lower gain than an 12AX7, but more than a 12AT7. Very smooth.

The splitter (V2) can be any decent 12AX7, although the nicer it is the nicer it is. If the Chinese EL84s are not bright enough for you suggest putting a Sovtek LPS in the splitter.

I didn't find a full 12AX7 in V1 be beneficial overall.

[HamerHokie]

2 minutes ago, JGale said:

The Chinese EL84s in the Mooer are decent. The 12AX_s are not. V1 is a 12AT7 I replaced with a 5751, a lower gain than an 12AX7, but more than a 12AT7. Very smooth.

The splitter (V2) can be any decent 12AX7, although the nicer it is the nicer it is. If the Chinese EL84s are not bright enough for you suggest putting a Sovtek LPS in the splitter.

I didn't find a full 12AX7 in V1 be beneficial overall.

Thanks for the advice.  I might want to try those swaps.  The amp seems plenty bright enough.

[JGale]

Just fiddling around with mine now.  The JJ 12AT7/ECC81 is a very nice replacement for the Chinese 12AT7 at around $13.

Look for a low noise, short plate 12AX7 for V2. You just want clean, quiet passthrough here. 

I have one of these in mine as splitter. https://www.dougstubes.com/ruby-12ax7-ac5-high-grade.html

I have no idea where I got it but it is QUIET.

[tbonesullivan]

Just spent some more time looking at these pedals, and they really do seem very well thought out. I love how they can "replace" the preamp on your amp, as they really are a "preamp" pedal with a full tone stack and everything.  I have two Carvin "preamp" pedals and I definitely think they work better going into the loop of an amp than going in the front end.

They definitely use some interesting choices for tubes, based on what old production is available NOS. They basically designed these around the CV4014 and EC 900 tubes, and I don't know if there are any equivalents out there. I don't know how long the tubes last in the pedals, but that is something I would worry about, compared to other tube preamp pedals which run off 12AX7 tubes.

Fender also brought out their own tube OD pedals, using miniature 6205 tubes. I don't know if those even ARE replaceable.

[HamerHokie]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:42 PM, tbonesullivan said:

Just spent some more time looking at these pedals, and they really do seem very well thought out. I love how they can "replace" the preamp on your amp, as they really are a "preamp" pedal with a full tone stack and everything.  I have two Carvin "preamp" pedals and I definitely think they work better going into the loop of an amp than going in the front end.

They definitely use some interesting choices for tubes, based on what old production is available NOS. They basically designed these around the CV4014 and EC 900 tubes, and I don't know if there are any equivalents out there. I don't know how long the tubes last in the pedals, but that is something I would worry about, compared to other tube preamp pedals which run off 12AX7 tubes.

Fender also brought out their own tube OD pedals, using miniature 6205 tubes. I don't know if those even ARE replaceable.

I have a V4 Sheriff on the way.  I am going to A-B compare with the Copper, and see if one stands out.  The Sheriff has one feature the Copper lacks - a gain and master for each channel.  If I can't decide I may use them both, maybe setting up a looper to select one or the other with all the rest of my effects.  Something tells me I'll eventually favor one over the other though, as I use them in the rig.

[tbonesullivan]

9 hours ago, HamerHokie said:

I have a V4 Sheriff on the way.  I am going to A-B compare with the Copper, and see if one stands out.  The Sheriff has one feature the Copper lacks - a gain and master for each channel.  If I can't decide I may use them both, maybe setting up a looper to select one or the other with all the rest of my effects.  Something tells me I'll eventually favor one over the other though, as I use them in the rig.

Definitely give the Copper a chance. My Mesa Royal Atlantic has a lead channel set up like that: one Gain control with a tone stack and two masters. The channels are a bit different in gain, so even with only one gain control it's versatile, even before the built in attenuator factors in.  Mesa made another amp around the same time that had three channels but only one set of controls with a clean level compensation control, and a gain trim for either the clean or overdrive modes.

[HamerHokie]

So I got the Sheriff and put it through the wringer alongside the Copper.  In general the Sheriff doesn't do low gain crunch very well - it wants to drive hard.  The Sheriff's two channels are not identically voiced - the second is brighter and a bit higher gain.  The second channel sounds awesome, reminds me of a 100 watter's 'high' input cranked to about 7.

What makes it probably a 'loser' in this sweepstakes is the first channel, which is darker than the second, perhaps voiced like the 'lo' input of the classic Plexi.  It is also noticeably darker than either of the two Copper channels.  If it was voiced like its second channel I might be able to use both units, but as it stands now I can only use the Copper, practically speaking. I will probably get rid of the Sheriff, which is sad because that second channel is pretty great. 

[murkat]

JJ pre amp 12ax7's? change them.

 

[HamerHokie]

1 hour ago, murkat said:

JJ pre amp 12ax7's? change them.

 

Nope, the Sheriff uses 1 x EC900 and 3 x CV4014.

[HamerHokie]

Victory's service manager advised me to add a cap on the circuit board to make channel 1 brighter.  I think that's a bridge too far for me.

[JGale]

Can't find a schematic. Can you post pics of the location he mentioned. If it's cleanly accessible you could try small alligator clips to find the right cap.

[HamerHokie]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:47 PM, JGale said:

Can't find a schematic. Can you post pics of the location he mentioned. If it's cleanly accessible you could try small alligator clips to find the right cap.

I'm not going to bother.  I gigged with the Copper/Mooer combo yesterday and it worked so well I don't need to consider the Sheriff anymore.

This was an outdoor show and I had to push the Mooer past 12 o'clock volume, where it started to overdrive the EL84s nicely.  The Copper's normal channel got the perfect amount of crunch at this level, and the difference between that and the treble boost channel lessened.  

If anything I hope that Mooer develops a 40 watt version of their Tube Engine, it is just perfect for my rig.

[HamerHokie]

I got my THD Type O back from repairs and tried the Sheriff in the THD's effects loop.  Amazing results.  The THD sounds just like a Plexi, and the tone from the Sheriff's second channel is IDENTICAL to the THD's.  Extremely aggressive high mids (Hamer Studio Custom with SD Whole Lotta Humbuckers).

Using this in the effects loop of any plexi-voiced amp would provide two additional channels.  You set the amp up for a lead tone and set the Sheriff up for two rhythm tones, then bypass the Sheriff for a lead.  

If I didn't need a clean or light crunch sound, I would use this rig in a heartbeat.  As it stands I can only gig with the Copper, but may keep the Sheriff for a future fill-in opportunity.  Or I may sell it here.

[JGale]

On 8/30/2021 at 3:16 PM, HamerHokie said:

I'm not going to bother.  I gigged with the Copper/Mooer combo yesterday and it worked so well I don't need to consider the Sheriff anymore.

This was an outdoor show and I had to push the Mooer past 12 o'clock volume, where it started to overdrive the EL84s nicely.  The Copper's normal channel got the perfect amount of crunch at this level, and the difference between that and the treble boost channel lessened.  

If anything I hope that Mooer develops a 40 watt version of their Tube Engine, it is just perfect for my rig.

I just put the OEM Shuguang EL84s back in and they DO start to breakup just past noon. How bizzare. Both the TAD EL84s (gone in a flash of blue smoke) and the Genalex EL84s (microphonic after five months) distort very little or not at all at much higher volume.

I can't recommend either of these tubes based my experience, but rather than 40Ws, maybe try some different tubes.

I have a set of NOS Sylvania coming from Brent Jesse, so I can give you some insight on those, but even a cheap couple of Sovtek or JJ  might do the trick. Want to borrow the Genalex?

7189 are pin compatible with EL84. They supposedly have high headroom, but they tend to be pricey because they have other redeeming qualities as well.

[JGale]

Picked up the NOS Sylvania EL84 from Brent Jesse, Inc. Very nice. Quiet, smooth, give up the goods when pushed lightly with a Tone Press into a Lightspeed OD (fukking great pedal, but needs a HPF).

A JAN GE 5751 from my found-along-the-roadside stash. Easily the quietest V1 tube I have yet to encounter. Splitter is a smooth plate Telefunken from the same stash. The dynamics are much improved and the headroom is almost full sweep on the volume pot.

Nice little amp.