SD and The Creme Co. PAF differences

[scottcald]

Did original PAFs vary so widely that they result in the recreations varying too?  Particularly the Duncan 59s have a sort of scooped mid type of tone and that's how they show it in their EQ graph.  DiMarzio's PAF version is more mid-rangey, again, shown in their EQ graph for the pickup.   The outputs are pretty even between them.  

Even though the windings varied on the originals, even from coil to coil, shouldn't they have all been in the same ballpark of EQ curve?  Since I've never wound a pickup, I'm curious.  

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment.  

[JGravelin]

Original PAFs were 6.9k at the low side to around 9.2k on the top end - absolutely all over the place. I've only been able to examine one real set myself, but I'm quite positive both the Ds had a good cross-section of originals to compare. In the end, they both came up with a PAF formula that they felt was representative of the era and that they enjoyed hearing personally, but by no means is either - or anyone elses - PAF replica the quintessential version. Because there simply isn't ONE.

As for the EQ curve, determining factors are coil wire gauge choice, the tension the coils were wound at, magnet choice, what type of steel parts they ended up going with...and then, the biggest question: how are they measuring this eq curve? Purely bench tests? In a guitar? And if it's in a guitar, what kind of wood is the guitar made from? Is it good wood? Maple top? Pure 'hog? Alder? What about the fingerboard? What amps? Strings? Players touch? Neither would ever disclose such information, so...

...

Different strokes for different folks. That's my .02

 

 

[scottcald]

Wow, thanks for the detail.  I think both versions sound good but different.  Now it makes more sense why.  Really appreciate the info. 

[Armitage]

Have you guys noticed the ignored Gibson 490T and 490R are almost identical to the praised Classic 57 and Classic 57+ set.

[scottcald]

1 hour ago, Armitage said:

Have you guys noticed the ignored Gibson 490T and 490R are almost identical to the praised Classic 57 and Classic 57+ set.

I hadn't, but I have to say, I've tried the 490R/T set and then replaced the bridge with 498T, and that combo is MUCH better. 

[Armitage]

The Gibson 498T is one of my fav pickups, period.

[murkat]

3 hours ago, Armitage said:

Have you guys noticed the ignored Gibson 490T and 490R are almost identical to the praised Classic 57 and Classic 57+ set.

Gibson 490T and 490R, modern appeal

Gibson Classic 57 and Classic 57+, vintage appeal

Gibson 498T, the answer to the JB, but not as mids pronounced. (it is a nice pup)

Gibson 500t, the answer to the SD 100. Well.... kinda. As well with the Dirty fingers which pre dates the 500T (trem spacing)

 

[Armitage]

The modern appeal is almost exactly the same wind/magnets as the vintage appeal...

[JGravelin]

The magnet wire insulation is different on the 'Modern' vs. 'Classic'; Polyurethane on the former, Plain Enamel on the latter. I've heard rumors that Gibson is using Poly with black/brown dye added to it so that it looks like Plain Enamel wire on the current Classic offerings, but I can't speak on that. The first and second year Classics I've dissected and had on my bench have featured Plain Enamel wire, but I'm not sure what they're up to these days.

Some will say the wire insulation makes no difference, but my ears tell me otherwise. Neither is better/worse than the other - it's all in how you use it.

 

[Armitage]

Insulation will make no difference... but THICKNESS of insulation will. i.e. it will keep the wires further apart in the wind.

[JGravelin]

See, there you have it: Some say it does, some say it doesn't. It's a topic that has been beaten to death and straight into the afterlife in lots of forums over and over again.

I can only speak from my own personal experience and what my ears tell me, as a guy whos built/wound loads of pickups, has his fingers on wire for hours nearly every day, and has done direct comparisons - all materials the same but wound with different insulated wire that has the same measured diameter, using the same number of turns at the same TPL and same tension: the insulative material does make a difference. Theoretically, the insulation type shouldn't matter at all if all things are equal - I know this - yet somehow it does.

Great sounding pickups can be made regardless of the insulation type. I enjoy working with Poly much more than Plain Enamel personally, but for some things a coil spun up with Poly doesn't sound quite right to my ears.

Dig into it if you want:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t3547/

http://www.seymourduncan.com/tales-from-custom-shop/seymour-duncan-company/the-way-of-wire/

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72199

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1198/

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?92594-Attn-Pickup-Winding-Gurus-Poly-or-Enamel