Hamer of Drumming Type Stuff

[velorush]

Two years ago my son wanted a drum set for Christmas (made my dad laugh!). Being eight at the time, we didn't want to spend a fortune, but I was determined we weren't going to get him one of those ToysRUs toy sets. We compromised on a PDP (DW import) set from Musician's Friend.

I was surprised by the quality of some things (double-braced cymbal stands, real wood shells) and not by others. As you would expect, the cymbals are the weak link, but even more so, the high hat stand/mechanism is terrible!

He's had a few lessons and can actually play - he just needs practice. I'd like to encourage him with more functional equipment, but I also realize he's ten and may decide at any minute drumming isn't for him - I want to spend accordingly.

Anyone have a recommendation for a high hat stand upgrade?

Anyone have a recommendation on a cymbal upgrade set?

[silentman]

Guitar center has tons of used inventory. If you have one nearby, check out what they have on line and I'm sure you can score upgrades and keep the cash outflow low.

[MCChris]

Guitar center has tons of used inventory. If you have one nearby, check out what they have on line and I'm sure you can score upgrades and keep the cash outflow low.

This. Used is the way to go for drum gear that isn't shells, especially cymbals.

[unfun75]

Sabian B8Pro's are great cymbals for the money as well as the Paiste PST5 series.

Just remembered I have a Sabian B8 Pro 20" ride that I don't use. May sell if you're interested.

[JohnnyB]

Go to the Guitar Center site for used gear. Do a search under "drums" for "hi-hat stand" and specify a price range of $5 to $20. You won't believe what you can get in double-legged direct-pull stands in excellent condition for $15-20 from the likes of Premier, Mapex, Pearl, and Gibraltar. If it was me I'd go with the Mapex or Premier. That Mapex looks great,

Do a similar search for Sabian B8 and you'll get several pages of cymbals including a 14" crash starting at $9.99. There's an unopened B8 cymbal pack for $219.

I prefer used Sabian AA and AAX series as they're cast instead of sheet bronze and are completely professional level quality. If you check eBay for "Sabian AA" you'll find some pretty good deals. However, they won't be as inexpensive as the B8s, and really, B8s are way better than what I had as a 10-year-old. OTOH, if he sticks with drums, he'd be less likely to outgrow the Sabian AA series.

[velorush]

These are GREAT suggestions! I searched yesterday and found an "excellent" DW 5000 high hat stand for $100 ($220 new) - but mom (the voice of reason, with no sense of GAS [madam killjoy]) flinched at that citing 'he may or may not stick with this...' I think she's more inclined at this point in his development to go the JohnnyB route of $5 to $20. I will check Mapex and Premier.

On the cymbals, I was trying to get up to speed on the Sabian and Zildjian sites, so now I understand the sheet vs. cast thing. The Sabian B8 series looks great for where he's at - anything will be better than the glorified trash can lids that came with the set!

Thanks, everyone.

Any thoughts on a means of allowing him to play to music without killing his hearing? Right now he's wearing ear plugs any time he's practicing, but that prevents him from playing along to music. We tried out using earbuds, but the iPod had to be turned up too loud to be heard over the drums. When I was a kid my uncle used to abuse his gigantic Rogers set wearing conventional headphones, but that was too long ago for me to remember how loud he had to keep them for a good mix.

[JohnnyB]

These are GREAT suggestions! I searched yesterday and found an "excellent" DW 5000 high hat stand for $100 ($220 new) - but mom (the voice of reason, with no sense of GAS [madam killjoy]) flinched at that citing 'he may or may not stick with this...' I think she's more inclined at this point in his development to go the JohnnyB route of $5 to $20. I will check Mapex and Premier.

DW 5000 is way overkill. That Mapex is a killer 'hat stand for 20 bucks. For awhile Mapex had a former Rogers endorser, Steve Ettelsohn, who helped design their hardware and make Mapex more competitive in the upscale drum market.

Any thoughts on a means of allowing him to play to music without killing his hearing? Right now he's wearing ear plugs any time he's practicing, but that prevents him from playing along to music. We tried out using earbuds, but the iPod had to be turned up too loud to be heard over the drums. When I was a kid my uncle used to abuse his gigantic Rogers set wearing conventional headphones, but that was too long ago for me to remember how loud he had to keep them for a good mix.

Yeah. Lose the earplugs--it'll just teach him to play too loud so he can hear himself. You don't really need earplugs until you're in a fully amplified band practicing in a small space. That's not the case for a 10-year-old playing at home. I started drumming and taking drum lessons when I was 9 going on 10. A little more than a year later I got my first drum set (see my signature pic). Although I didn't have a hi-hat, they were full-sized drums with all-maple shells, capable of a lot of volume in the bedroom where I practiced. I never had a problem with ringing ears or hearing loss. One of my best drumming buddies in jr. hi & hi school had been in drum corps since he was 6. None of us wore ear plugs back then and it just wasn't an issue. As I said, if you want him to be able to hear and control his volume, he has to be able to hear himself. Lose the earplugs, and if he practices with music, use on-ear lightweight phones, not earbuds or closed-back headphones that block outside sound.

If you're still concerned, it's loud high frequencies that do the most damage, so you might want to put a little tape on the crash cymbal (overtones go up to about 16Khz) to attenuate it, but you shouldn't need to do that to the 'hats or ride.

[velorush]

DW 5000 is way overkill. That Mapex is a killer 'hat stand for 20 bucks. For awhile Mapex had a former Rogers endorser, Steve Ettelsohn, who helped design their hardware and make Mapex more competitive in the upscale drum market.

So noted. I'm treating this way too much like one of my guitar or amp purchases - I generally engage in exactly what you said, "overkill."

Yeah. Lose the earplugs--it'll just teach him to play too loud so he can hear himself. You don't really need earplugs until you're in a fully amplified band practicing in a small space. That's not the case for a 10-year-old playing at home. I started drumming and taking drum lessons when I was 9 going on 10. A little more than a year later I got my first drum set (see my signature pic). Although I didn't have a hi-hat, they were full-sized drums with all-maple shells, capable of a lot of volume in the bedroom where I practiced. I never had a problem with ringing ears or hearing loss. One of my best drumming buddies in jr. hi & hi school had been in drum corps since he was 6. None of us wore ear plugs back then and it just wasn't an issue. As I said, if you want him to be able to hear and control his volume, he has to be able to hear himself. Lose the earplugs, and if he practices with music, use on-ear lightweight phones, not earbuds or closed-back headphones that block outside sound.

If you're still concerned, it's loud high frequencies that do the most damage, so you might want to put a little tape on the crash cymbal (overtones go up to about 16Khz) to attenuate it, but you shouldn't need to do that to the 'hats or ride.

Everything I had not considered. I am concerned about hearing loss in the higher frequencies (cymbals), but I'd not considered how the protection encourages him to play more loudly. This is quite an epiphany: he should be playing without protection, at levels that are low enough he can hear a stereo played at a comfortable volume. Is that about right?

[JohnnyB]

DW 5000 is way overkill. That Mapex is a killer 'hat stand for 20 bucks. For awhile Mapex had a former Rogers endorser, Steve Ettelsohn, who helped design their hardware and make Mapex more competitive in the upscale drum market.

So noted. I'm treating this way too much like one of my guitar or amp purchases - I generally engage in exactly what you said, "overkill."

Yeah. Lose the earplugs--it'll just teach him to play too loud so he can hear himself....

Everything I had not considered. I am concerned about hearing loss in the higher frequencies (cymbals), but I'd not considered how the protection encourages him to play more loudly. This is quite an epiphany: he should be playing without protection, at levels that are low enough he can hear a stereo played at a comfortable volume. Is that about right?

If he practices with earplugs or enclosed earphones, you will be conditioning him to beat the drums rather than play them. Consider: If earplugs attenuate the SPL by 20-29 dB, that's how much louder he will play than if he can hear himself in real space. I have direct experience in this. Two years after I started drum lessons, and a year after I got my own drum set, we visited our cousins in IL. The oldest cousin had just bought himself a drum set complete with Zildjian cymbals. He had a nice stereo too and a pair of sealed closed back headphones plugged into it for practice. I cued up the just-released Beach Boys' Party! album and started whanging away to "Barbara Ann." I wasn't by nature a loud drummer because my parents were church people in their mid-50s. But my drumming was so loud to hear above the record AND through the closed headphones that everyone in every corner of the house (and it was a big house) came running to the bedroom to tell me to tone it down. And these were polite people.

As for drumming along with stereo speakers, you have to have a really deft touch (unlikely for a learning 10-year-old) or a system capable of comfortably hitting 110 dB, which usually requires a few hundred high current watts (not the wimpy watts of a mass market receiver). If he's going to practice to music, the best bet is to play with open back on-ear headphones so he can hear the drums as easily with the headphones on as without. No earbuds to plug the ear canal, no closed back 'phones that isolate the ears. Something like this.

It's always possible that he play too loud and turn up the headphones to keep up, but you'll hear it when he does. Then you come in and tell him to turn down the music and play softer. My stepson plays a full size set of drums (vintage Slingerlands) to his iPod and on-ear open back Grado headphones, and it never sounds excessively loud or obnoxious. I also had a housemate who practiced to music played through open back headphones and it was never a problem.

[unfun75]

Easy solution, Pro Mark Hot Rods.

[JohnnyB]

Easy solution, Pro Mark Hot Rods.

Excellent suggestion and one I hadn't though of--a stick that produces less volume. He can play drums at a normal level of effort while a lower SPL reaches his ears. Rods have a cool sound all their own, like something between a stick and a brush. For a low volume straight stick sound I like the Vic Firth SD5 Custom Echo. Unlike thin, light sticks such as the 7A, the Echo has a thick grip area and tapers to a delicate shoulder and bead. Great cymbal sound, great stick control, low volume. I sure wish these had been around when I played a full sized Ludwig kit on a tour of mostly churches.

[Thundernotes]

Yamaha makes some nice hardware/stands, actually. Pearl is good too.

[JohnnyB]

Yamaha makes some nice hardware/stands, actually. Pearl is good too.

Yep, lots of good hardware out there--DW, Mapex, Tama, Premier, Pearl, Yamaha, Gibralter, Gretsch, and so on. Our kit has a mix of DW, Gibralter, Tama, Pearl mostly. So much of it is so good you really don't have to spend too much to get good, solid hardware that puts anything I grew up on to shame. I got some Pearl double tom floor stands on closeout for $59 each, with wide stance double legs. We picked DW 7000 for the double pedal and hi-hat, but I also have a lightweight (but double-legged) Pearl hi-hat stand that came with the compact Rhythm Traveler that would be more than enough for a 10-yr-old.

Looking over the offerings on the GC Used Site, there are currently hat stands from Mapex, Gibralter, Sonor, and Premier for $19.99 each. There's also a batch o, Tama, Mapex, Ludwig, and Pearl at $29.99 if you want to get fancy. Really, you wouldn't lose with any of those.

Several of them look so similar in design and build I wonder if they're made at the same factory with different pedal boards for the various brands.

[unfun75]

A good deal at AMS today on a Mapex hardware bundle. http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MAP-HP5004-LIST

[JohnnyB]

A good deal at AMS today on a Mapex hardware bundle. http://www.americanm...MAP-HP5004-LIST

Sh'yeah!