Mogami, Baby!

[KH Guitar Freak]

How much do the quality of effects pedals and the cables you use to connect them come into play here? If I get a good quality 18' cable and then have runn-of-the-mill cables on my pedalboard, will I hear any difference at all? Or, if I have Boss pedals, does that cancel out anything gained by a good cable?

The buffering circuitry helps, but it can only go so far to "mask" the tone. Also, if your pedalboard uses very little cable, it wouldn't make much of a difference. But a single instrument cable would be sufficient enough to change the tone...

[edgar_allan_poe]

How much do the quality of effects pedals and the cables you use to connect them come into play here? If I get a good quality 18' cable and then have runn-of-the-mill cables on my pedalboard, will I hear any difference at all? Or, if I have Boss pedals, does that cancel out anything gained by a good cable

I don't have a pedal board, but I do use a Foxrox TZF Flanger in the loop of my Roadking. I was using Hosa patch cables and when I bought the Mogami Gold patch cables, there was....again...an enormous difference. Remember though, I was going from $2-$3 patch cables, so YMMV.

For sure, you want a cable that is made well, has good connectivity, is durable and passes a floor capacitance and resistance threshold. Past that and I've yet to see lab test results showing any difference in output signal waveforms or frequency response, or any articles that don't describe perceived differences in squishy, emotional language.

Nonsense. The difference in tone that I hear has absolutely zero to do with my emotions. I am not a rookie or someone who has had no experience with professional level equipment. I may not have the ability of others on this board and I am the first to admit that. One thing I do have though, is a very good ear. I don't give a shit was a friggin lab test will show me. I know the damn thing sounds different, very different, from my other cables.

I bought these cables because I perceived them to be more road worthy than the cables I was using and I had just had a cable go bad during a show. I was *not* expecting a tonal difference. What I heard was the equivalent of a blanket being taken off of my amp and I was blown away.

I immediately posted my experience and several other members purchased this cable and had the same experience. To dismiss this as "snake oil" is extremely arrogant.

[specialk]

What I heard was the equivalent of a blanket being taken off of my amp and I was blown away.

+1. I was one of those who followed Poe's advice and got a Mogami Gold to replace the $10 generic cord I was using. From the first chords/notes I played, the difference was immediately noticeable across the frequencies. Amazing. Now I don't have the test gear to back this up with figures, but I'm pretty sure my ears don't lie.

[KH Guitar Freak]

How much do the quality of effects pedals and the cables you use to connect them come into play here? If I get a good quality 18' cable and then have runn-of-the-mill cables on my pedalboard, will I hear any difference at all? Or, if I have Boss pedals, does that cancel out anything gained by a good cable

I don't have a pedal board, but I do use a Foxrox TZF Flanger in the loop of my Roadking. I was using Hosa patch cables and when I bought the Mogami Gold patch cables, there was....again...an enormous difference. Remember though, I was going from $2-$3 patch cables, so YMMV.

For sure, you want a cable that is made well, has good connectivity, is durable and passes a floor capacitance and resistance threshold. Past that and I've yet to see lab test results showing any difference in output signal waveforms or frequency response, or any articles that don't describe perceived differences in squishy, emotional language.

Nonsense. The difference in tone that I hear has absolutely zero to do with my emotions. I am not a rookie or someone who has had no experience with professional level equipment. I may not have the ability of others on this board and I am the first to admit that. One thing I do have though, is a very good ear. I don't give a shit was a friggin lab test will show me. I know the damn thing sounds different, very different, from my other cables.

I bought these cables because I perceived them to be more road worthy than the cables I was using and I had just had a cable go bad during a show. I was *not* expecting a tonal difference. What I heard was the equivalent of a blanket being taken off of my amp and I was blown away.

I immediately posted my experience and several other members purchased this cable and had the same experience. To dismiss this as "snake oil" is extremely arrogant.

Fair enough. Guess you could say that I never really skimped on patch cables really. The cheapest I have are the Spectraflex ones...

[JohnnyB]

[edgar_allan_poe]

Fair enough. Guess you could say that I never really skimped on patch cables really. The cheapest I have are the Spectraflex ones... ph34r.gif

Exactly. My guess is that the difference between the Spectraflex and Mogami would be tiny, if any. The length of the cable and the fact that they are both well made would be huge factors.

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

The difference is sufficient to make me wonder how many people are swapping strings and pickups at a fever pace when the fundamental problem is raggedy-ass signal transfer from guitar to amp.

You have described a lot of us! I'll be buying some Mogami in the near future based on this thread. My mic cables are Mogami, and I do use one of them to plug in my Ovation and Adamas acoustic/electrics sometimes. For my Hamer it has been Monster brand, mostly due to reasonable price and the lifetime warranty.

[jwhitcomb3]

How much do the quality of effects pedals and the cables you use to connect them come into play here? If I get a good quality 18' cable and then have runn-of-the-mill cables on my pedalboard, will I hear any difference at all? Or, if I have Boss pedals, does that cancel out anything gained by a good cable

I don't have a pedal board, but I do use a Foxrox TZF Flanger in the loop of my Roadking. I was using Hosa patch cables and when I bought the Mogami Gold patch cables, there was....again...an enormous difference. Remember though, I was going from $2-$3 patch cables, so YMMV.

For sure, you want a cable that is made well, has good connectivity, is durable and passes a floor capacitance and resistance threshold. Past that and I've yet to see lab test results showing any difference in output signal waveforms or frequency response, or any articles that don't describe perceived differences in squishy, emotional language.

Nonsense. The difference in tone that I hear has absolutely zero to do with my emotions. I am not a rookie or someone who has had no experience with professional level equipment. I may not have the ability of others on this board and I am the first to admit that. One thing I do have though, is a very good ear. I don't give a shit was a friggin lab test will show me. I know the damn thing sounds different, very different, from my other cables.

I bought these cables because I perceived them to be more road worthy than the cables I was using and I had just had a cable go bad during a show. I was *not* expecting a tonal difference. What I heard was the equivalent of a blanket being taken off of my amp and I was blown away.

I immediately posted my experience and several other members purchased this cable and had the same experience. To dismiss this as "snake oil" is extremely arrogant.

Millions of people have been cured by placebos as well.

This isn't complicated: if there is a perceivable difference in tone, it would be evident by comparing spectrum outputs and waveform. No difference in waveform means no difference in sound.

This isn't magic, folks, it's science. Nothing arrogant about it. We're talking about moving electrons through wires. We're talking about the effect a conduit has on the signal passing through it, which can be measured. The test is simple: hook up a white noise generator and a spectrometer, connected by a cable. Measure the output signal and note the RC characteristics of the cable. Any differences will present themselves.

Resistance and capacitance are the major elements of a passive filter (they also happen to be the major elements in your guitar's control cavity). Your cable's resistance and/or capacitance levels will determine the attenuation of specific frequencies. So cables with high RC characteristics will sound different from cables with low RC characteristics. Cheap cables typically have lousy RC specs, as do cables with bad connectors or solder joints. But once you pass a threshold, the differences are negligible. Yes, you'll hear the difference between a poorly made cable with bad connectivity and RC characteristics and a well made cable with good connectivity and RC characteristics. But again, once you past a minimum quality threshold, the differences will be negligible.

Changing the value of your guitar's tone control from 10 to 9 will have a vastly greater change in resulting tone than changing from a good $20 cable and a $50 cable. You can swap out pots and caps in your guitar for very little money and affect a much greater tonal change.

FWIW, I spent a 20 year career moving electrons from point A to point B (telecommunications engineer, developer for MOTU, technical advisory board comittee co-chair at NAMM). My specialty was copper telecom protocols. I've got degrees in electrical engineering and physics. Does this make me an authority? No. But I'm not talking out of my ass either.

The difference between a $20 cable and a $50 cable is marketing and psychology. All the anecdotal evidence in the world means nothing. The truth is in the spectrum.

-Jonathan

[edgar_allan_poe]

Whatever...

[HSB0531]

The most important qualities to look for in a cable are:

Low capacitance per foot (in Pico-farads)

Ideal impedance of 110 ohms (look into digital audio cables).

90% shielding ot better.

Durable construction.

On lifetime cables:

No cable will last a lifetime.

Cable shielding breaks down from repeated use.

Coiling, bending, being stepped on etc.

All these will degrade the quality oof any cable.

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

This isn't magic, folks, it's science. Nothing arrogant about it. We're talking about moving electrons through wires. We're talking about the effect a conduit has on the signal passing through it, which can be measured. The test is simple: hook up a white noise generator and a spectrometer, connected by a cable. Measure the output signal and note the RC characteristics of the cable. Any differences will present themselves.

-Jonathan

My degree is in EE too. I'm skeptical of claims about cables being superior due to this or that, but damn if a lot of folks swear they can hear a big difference. Sure, if you spend more on it you will like it better. I do wonder about the effects of the method of attaching the connectors to the cable, and the interaction of guitar to cable and of cable to amp input circuit. Maybe it isn't the raw cable, it is the manufacturing and assembly.

What about phase difference? Inductance? RLC would seem to be quite important, not just RC. A spectrum analyzer will give you amplitude vs freq but not phase shift.

What I do know is that durability is a big factor. Having a plug break apart or a wire failing during a performance is arguably worse than lower sound quality in a noisy bar.

[jwhitcomb3]

My degree is in EE too. I'm skeptical of claims about cables being superior due to this or that, but damn if a lot of folks swear they can hear a big difference. Sure, if you spend more on it you will like it better. I do wonder about the effects of the method of attaching the connectors to the cable, and the interaction of guitar to cable and of cable to amp input circuit. Maybe it isn't the raw cable, it is the manufacturing and assembly.

What about phase difference? Inductance? RLC would seem to be quite important, not just RC. A spectrum analyzer will give you amplitude vs freq but not phase shift.

What I do know is that durability is a big factor. Having a plug break apart or a wire failing during a performance is arguably worse than lower sound quality in a noisy bar.

Yes. I had mentioned inductance and edited it out as I didn't want to go overboard on the techy stuff. Phase can be measured, but experience with T1/T3 signals over 75 ohm coaxial cables indicates that it takes a lot more than 10-20 feet of cable for it to become a factor...more like 50 to 100 feet to even be measurable. And phase is going to be mangled so much by any amp's tone circuitry that again, we're talking differences in the noise.

-Jonathan

[jwhitcomb3]

On lifetime cables:

No cable will last a lifetime.

Cable shielding breaks down from repeated use.

Coiling, bending, being stepped on etc.

All these will degrade the quality oof any cable.

Excellent points. And it leads me to the question: did people exclaiming on how much better brand X cable sounded compare to a new brand Y cable, or to their old, trusty, worn out brand Y cable?

-Jonathan

[JohnnyB]

The music store in my neighborhood stocks Zoalla cable. It has a solid continuous cast silver center conductor and is triple-shielded. I may give it a try soon. It's pretty reasonably priced for silver, which is inherently a better conductor than copper, and--unlike copper--doesn't lose conductivity when the surface oxidizes. Cupric oxide is almost an insulator; silver oxide is an excellent conductor. Ironically, Zoalla is a division of Hosa, but they wouldn't be the first garden variety company to swing for the fences. Nakamichi went from OEM for cheap unreliable cassette transports to bleeding edge state-of-the-art.

[Mike Lee]

Mogami lists it's cable specs here follows:

http://www.mogamicable.com/Bulk/micr_cable...les/guitar.html

George L's has a lower capacitance - measured in 3rd party tests at 21 pf/ft which is about HALF the level of the better Mogami cable.

If you want the highest fidelity get George L's or similar. But it will sound brighter edgier, and to some ears "harsh". I played through someone else's 10 ft George L's cable once and found it too bright for my pickups.

If you prefer the sound of Mogami, that's fine. But it is NOT due to higher fidelity or better electrical properties. The higher capacitance combined with your high impedance pickups simply creates a low pass filter that bleeds off some of the highs, making it sound "richer", "fuller", "more harmonic", "less harsh", etc. But this filtering is also why we like broken in speakers over new ones, and tube amps over solid state amps.

Buy what you like the sound of at a price you are willing to pay, but don't try to claim that there is something special about the cables that cannot be measured or tested.

[JohnnyB]

Mogami lists it's [sic] cable specs here follows:

http://www.mogamicable.com/Bulk/micr_cable...les/guitar.html

George L's has a lower capacitance - measured in 3rd party tests at 21 pf/ft which is about HALF the level of the better Mogami cable.

...

blah-blah-blah

...

Buy what you like the sound of at a price you are willing to pay, but don't try to claim that there is something special about the cables that cannot be measured or tested.

: Sigh : I guess it was just a matter of time before you and JWiii would tag team to shit on this thread.

Thanks for your permission to buy what I want. Now I can get on with my life.

When someone posts a tone report about a guitar made with one-piece Honduras mahogany, with a top made of a specific wood and thickness, of strings wrapped with steel vs. nickel vs. 52 nickel/iron alloy, or even AlNiCo vs. ceramic magnet pickups and speakers, nobody demands to see oscilloscope tests to prove the subjective reviews and general consensus of sonic properties of one construction and materials method over another.

But report on the results of the same principles of excellence as applied to cables--carefully considered design, superior construction, tighter tolerances, better materials--and in swoop jwiii and M. Lee to set us all straight on RLC and the placebo effect on that most fundamental component of signal transfer. It's not only predictably boring, it's insulting to the large number of people who listen to what they're playing, share their experiences, and make adjustments accordingly.

Most recording studios (which are for-profit ventures) are wired with Mogami cable. Yet you dismiss their investments as nothing but money wasted on the placebo effect. How can you stand to live in such a self-deceived world?

[GaryT]

Guitar Player did a charted efficiency Table in one of this past years magazines.

But if your playing the best Monster Cable, or Planet Wave's, I can't remember them all. I think Dimarzio was up their. Then they all pretty much topped off at the same Percentage. Nothing was noticably better that I thought I should run out and get one.

Not one Directional Cable was in the top % though, they were all around the middle of the chart including Monster Directional cables.

So I could say this. I have a few very good Monsters I been using and have one of their Directional Cables. Now I can't tell a different in Tone between my Best Monster cables and the one Directional Monster I have.

I could hear a difference between real good cables and real shit cables for sure. So there is a point here where good is good is good is what Im saying.

[jwhitcomb3]

Not shitting, Johnny, just pointing out where fact and fantasy collide.

When someone posts a tone report about a guitar made with one-piece Honduras mahogany, with a top made of a specific wood and thickness, of strings wrapped with steel vs. nickel vs. 52 nickel/iron alloy, nobody demands to see oscilloscope tests to prove the subjective reviews.

Too many variables. Would you disagree that the densities and characteristics between two pieces of wood are far greater than two identically manufactured pieces of cable? Add in different pickups, wiring, electrical components, and two identically manufactured guitars can vary wildly. If that was the case with two cables of the same model, I think we could agree that this was indicative of a problem in quality control.

You aren't comparing apples to apples.

But report on the results of the same principles of excellence as applied to cables--carefully considered design, superior construction, tighter tolerances, better materials--and in swoop jwiii and M. Lee to set us all straight on RLC and the placebo effect on that most fundamental component of signal transfer. It's not only predictably boring, it's insulting to the large number of people who listen to what they're playing, share their experiences, and make adjustments accordingly.

Principles of excellence? Then I' guess we'd have to agree on what "excellent" means. Me, I'd like the most transparent sounding cable possible, and as I've mentioned before, that's not what you're getting by spending the extra money. There are plenty of places in the signal chain to add filters. I just don't want that in my cable.

I think you missed the points we were both making. Mike was pointing out that the qualities that many prefer in cables is not because they have better specs, but because they have higher capacitance. That's not a factor of quality control, but it does mean that some people prefer these cables because they add coloration, not remove it.

Most recording studios (which are for-profit ventures) are wired with Mogami cable. Yet you dismiss their investments as nothing but money wasted on the placebo effect. How can you stand to live in such a self-deceived world?

If the marketing for these cable trumpeted that they color the sound in a pleasing way, I'd have no problems. But claiming superior audio transparency is misleading. If you don't mind buying into marketing nonsense, fine.

-Jonathan

[specialk]

Jonathan,

I'm gonna keep my MG cable. But if I ever need a trial lawyer to wear down the other side, I'm calling you!

[GaryT]

IF your dealing with a 1/4 jack for a connecting cable on a DC Circuit, and the same length of cable say 20ft.

1st I'd like to know this. With respect, because we do have a few with Electrical backgrounds here.

1st off "percentage wise" in measuring a cable how good could a 20ft cable be in respect to Effieciency? Now their is no NEC Code for this so safty is not a factor. Therfore you COULD in theory do WHATEVER you want to do to build a Cable. Because really who's say whats Great or Sucks as long as it works?

2nd if I were to use a cable with a 5% lower efficiency rating than the first. Do you think it would make a difference in respect to Tone? Maybe I really ought to pay closer attention to these cables? Christ I won't send my guitars or amps out as it is. I thought maybe I could actually buy a good cable.

3rd When dealing with the NEC you often run into factors like Ampacity and conductors have to be derated etc. We don't have to deal with any of that here . So we could now Enlarge this cable AT WILL, thus making it more insulated? Or enlarge the conductors to a degree thus changing the resistance? Or the physics of the cable mathmatically..if you will?

Now even if we were to do ALL THIS? How efficient % wise could a cable be made? I don't know.

Now with regards to Tube amplification. Because our CABLE at some point has to go into this freaking DINOSAUR? God the Tube amps are working on what......55% efficiency at BEST? THATS why they are obsolete. But we as musicians actually believe the Harmonics produced by thses beasts make a Tonal difference? [bTW It does]

4th If our Total Circuit is only as efficient as its weakest link?...........Well let me not go to far here. You guys understand what I'm saying.

I work as an Electrical Journeyman here in CT, I have a degree and am Lic. in CT as a E-1. Knowing that, then you know I'm restricted by the NEC with everything . Because I work with High Voltage. So theirs no Fuc&^% around. Simply put, you do what the NEC tells you to or work in another field? I like doing what I'm doing so I follow the code.

But I know with Electronics? Really your not governed by anyone. Nor are you required to be State by State Lic. Simply because as long as you don't forget to short circuit the Caps. Your not going to deal with a Arc Flash hotter than the Temp on the Sun. You don't have to worry about electrocution Basically.

I think were reading way to much into this. These cables can only be so Efficient. And they are going to begin to break down. Unless your at home LIKE ME. Then hell ya you are going to constantly replace these babys. Definatly safe the reciepts. You WILL use them.

Have too, they are in constant movment. An Industrial Building will stay intact electrically for 100 years

[edgar_allan_poe]

Excellent points. And it leads me to the question: did people exclaiming on how much better brand X cable sounded compare to a new brand Y cable, or to their old, trusty, worn out brand Y cable?

So it would stand to reason that a cable made with better materials will *physically* hold up better (my original reason for purchasing it) and preserve its sonic characteristics longer than a cheaply made cable?

Wouldn't that be worth an extra $20?

[Mike Lee]

Most recording studios (which are for-profit ventures) are wired with Mogami cable. Yet you dismiss their investments as nothing but money wasted on the placebo effect. How can you stand to live in such a self-deceived world?

Johnny,

I merely pointed at that Mogami cables have higher capacitance than the long-recognized leader in low capacitance high fidelity guitar cables - George L's. That means they are LESS transparent and attenuate MORE high end than George L's. That is an absolute fact. Now, if you LIKE the attenuation and frequency response shift that Mogami cables provide that's great. Hendrix liked coiled cords because the poor fidelity actually warmed up his Strat tone. But Mogami's superiority, other than construction quality, is purely in the ear of the beholder.

I never said anything about the placebo effect - quite the contrary. Doubling the capacitance of a cable by going from George L's to Mogami will most certainly affect the tone of a guitar into a tube amp.

Now, as for recording studios, that is an apples-and-oranges comparison. Most any connection in a recording studio (EXCEPT for a guitar with passive pickups into a tube input stage) is guaranteed to be a low impedance output into a very high impedance input. That means the effects of cable capacitance and resistance are significantly reduced because the buffering effect results in virtually no current flow. So the most likely reason for selecting Mogami cables for a studio is for the quality of construction, mechanical reliability, connectors, resistance to shorting out, etc. You don't want to waste valuable studio time tracking down a bad cable somewhere in the signal chain. Such advantages of Mogami cables are not in dispute here.

Poe - this is a perfectly justifiable reason for paying more for a cable, as long as the claims prove to be true over time.

For the record, I use a Planet Waves Circuit Breaker 15 ft. cable that has shown similar or lower capacitance to George L's in 3rd party tests. It sounds fine and the cut-out switch comes in very handy. I have also started using George L's thin cable and solderless connectors for pedals.

[JohnnyB]

For those who want to explore the parameters of cable design beyond the RLC basics of Electronics 101, here are links to websites of advanced degree engineers who have devoted their professional lives to improved signal transfer in wire, cabling, and connectors.

Cardas Cable Insights

Cardas Cable FAQs

Downloadable Cardas brochures

Cardas on shielding, power cables, and low eddy copper

George Cardas is a former cable designer for AT&T and left to found Cardas Audio. He patented the golden section implementation of hyperlitz wire; by having the strand diameters diminish toward the center of the cable, it reduces inductance without negatively affecting resistance and capacitance.

Analysis Plus

There are several other white papers available from the menu at the upper right.

Analysis Plus used to make cables for others and in the process discovered and patented the hollow oval shape to reduce inductance without it affecting the other two parameters.

Nordost core technologies

Nordost was founded in 1991 to supply cable in a NASA contract for the Space Shuttle program. They have developed their own manufacturing technologies such as extruding the copper wire directly into the Teflon dielectric to remove any chance of oxidation creeping into the copper during manufacturing. They use a rectangular cross section for their conductors.

[Mike Lee]

Never mind.

[GaryT]

His Patent on Electrical conductors is facinating.