Getting the best sound out of a B8S

[Kleingeld]

Hi all,

I recently acquired a cool B8S from a fellow HFCer. I totally dig it. It's much easier to play than I anticipated (particularly finger playing which I thought would be much more difficult than it is). The thing is, though, that I don't think the pickups are doing the bass justice. It's a 1998 sporting the factory EMGs and electronics.

I'd really like open up and brighten the sound. I want to be able to emphasize the harmonics of the higher strings. I'd like to hear the strings really sing. I'd like to NEED the tone control, but flat-out open is too muffled and mid-rangy for me. I put a new set of nickel-wounds and a new battery in it, but it's still too dull sounding for me.

I was thinking that an updated preamp might do the trick, but before I start doing surgery on it I'd like to know more about what others have done to improve the sound of their Hamer first. Has anyone fiddled with their electronics or added a preamp to get a better sound out of the stock EMGs? If you found the EMGs to be useless, what PUPs have you had put in your bass? If it comes to replacing the PUPs, I'd be most likely to go passive, so I'd be particularly interested in passive PUPs advice, again with the hope of opening and brightening the sound of the bass to get the full benefit of the extra 4 strings.

Thank you, sage HFCers, for any advice you can give.

- K

[Armitage]

I have no experience with one but maybe your bass amp simply doesn't do the bright you want.

[Kleingeld]

Thanks for the reply, Armitage. Nope, my amp is absolutely up to the charge. I have multiple basses and hear a very sharp distinction between the muddy sound of the B8S versus the rest of the tribe.

[chromium]

I have not yet tried a B with EMGs, but both my '81 B8S and '80 B12S have been my main players in recent times...

I believe the pickups in both of mine are Dimarzio X2Ns (based on their measured DC resistance; rather than X2NBs), and the preamps are the old, potted Rex Bogue units (Balz Deluxe?). One of the members here (mc2?) had suggested that there may be a EMG preamp/booster that provides a similar sound...(EMG PA2, IIRC). Regardless, the output is HOT and the sound can be very bright (if desired). The highs sound great- not sterile or brittle, plenty of mids (which I like; not a big fan of a 'scooped' sound), and they crunch up nicely with a touch of overdrive and really cut in live settings. I play 'em both fingerstyle and with a pick, depending on the song.

Both are strung with D'Addario EXL220Ms for the roots (the windings on the short scale set started tapering over the first fret - hence the switch to the med scale set), and EXL110BT guitar strings for the octaves... Mainly due to the fact that the old neck designs struggle with the tension of the packaged sets. This combo set feels/sounds close, shaves off a lot of tension (~150lbs on the 12ver; compared to the EXL-170-12 set), and enabled me to dial both of them in with really low action. You won't have that problem with your dual-truss model, though

I run them through an Orange AD200 w/SVT cab, or a GK MB-212II when I don't want to lug around the big rig (38lbs vs ~150!). I don't care much for the sound of the latter amp at home, but for whatever reason... it works great for me live. The OD I'm using most at the moment is an EHX English Muff'n.

[chromium]

Another fleeting thought for what it's worth...

Short of modifying the bass, have you tried an outboard pre yet?

I occasionally take out a '68 Gibson EB-3 and '66 EB-2D. These basses have two equally useless pickups. One huge, overwound mudbucker at the neck that emits a low hovering cloud of bass tone, and a tiny, brittle nails-on-the-chalkboard pickup smack up against the bridge (why do I like these again? haha).

At any rate, it takes some doing to dial them in for a good live sound... but I'm able to with the help of an EQ (MXR 10-band on my pedalboard) to notch out the sub-lows, and an Alembic F2-B preamp with the highs and mids slightly cranked (and bright switch on). They actually sound really good with the additional outboard help.. and they're a blast to play.

Point is that you might be able to shape the sound of your B8 more to your liking with an outboard EQ and/or pre.

Here's a shot of my rig with the preamp. I usually run the 166A compressor with my "darker" basses, and the FMR leveling amp (less transparent; more "gushy") with the brighter basses:

[Tres Aardvarks]

I'm sure one (or both?) of the Matthes boys will chime in on this. IIRC one can't stand the EMGs in his basses?

Me, I've never had an issue getting plenty of usable tones from my B12M. I'm guessing my rig didn't have the level of shimmer you're looking for as I usually had overdrive or distortion on my high end (with some FX too).

[maxschrek]

I've used X2Ns and X2NBs in mine and liked them both, however, I like the D Activator X pups a bit better, similar voicing, same look but not nearly as hot with improved/less muddy mids. Also a good choice are Rio Grande Pitbulls. They're more like a cross between a Gibby TB+ and a p bass pup.

I just bought a pair of Bill Lawrence EB50s that I'm gonna try out in a B4s, looking forward to hearing those.

[Kleingeld]

Great suggestions, please keep them coming.

I know what Chromium is saying about adding a preamp/EQ, but it wouldn't be my style to rely on outboard electronics to get the right sound. I'd rather attack the root cause. The more I research the options and the more I think about how I'd like to approach this, the more I concentrate on replacing the PUPs and making the bass passive. The word that describes what the bass is missing is "articulation". I don't know if that means much to others, but as I was playing last night that was the word that kept coming to mind. The current sound is too muddy and doesn't do justice to the bass. I'd like more articulation of each note. More clarity and character without having to trick the output into being something it isn't.

I'll add that I went through a similar exercise with my Gibson Thunderbird. The stock PUPs in that bass were pure mud too. Just terrible. In the end I had custom SGD pickups made that sound fantastic. They really brought that bass alive. That bass is so crisp and confident now. It really cuts through and says what it has to say with total clarity. The problem was that the whole SGD experience completely sucked. Horrible customer service and communications. There were 100 broken promises and the PUPs, which were promised in 6 weeks, took well over 6 months to deliver. Once they came they were brilliant, but I would never want to go through the BS communications and waiting process with SGD again.

[chromium]

I've seen on a couple occasions where Dimarzio has recommended the D Activator X neck pickups (DP221) for both positions on a bass (in the latter link, they're talking about pickups for a B12S)

Based on what maxschrek described of their sound, and your own desire for more clarity/articulation... those might be a good place to start.

[Kleingeld]

Chromium, you've opened up a whole world of useful information here. You just set me down the right track to find what I'm looking for. THANK YOU!

BTW, David Schwab (who contributes a lot to the conversation here http://music-electronics-forum.com/t13991/) is the maker of SGD pickups (which I mentioned above). He clearly is a scientist of pickups. I just wish he did a better job of customer service. I'm half tempted to go back to a 6 month waiting game with him to get what I'm looking for.

[chromium]

I've seen him on a couple of fourms, and seems knowledgable and passionate about his work. Too bad he's not better at the business side of things... I find just being honest and setting expectations up front with people goes a long way. That huge thread over at TB really paints an unflattering picture.

If you go the custom route, you might check with Steve at ThunderBucker Ranch or Curtis Novak. I don't know either of 'em, but I've seen a lot of great feedback on both their quality and delivery over the years. Rio Grande Pickups has also been top notch when I dealt with them.

[mc2]

I absolutely hate the EMGs that Hamer put in most of its 90s-2000s 8- and 12ver basses. In general, I do not care for active bass pickups and batteries.

Any of my main basses are passive or have an active/passive switch, which I never use on active.

The early Hamers with the X2N or Model G PUPs are OK for the period. I think a large part of that sound concept was the old Bogue preamp black box/toggle. The closest thing I have found to the onboard Bogue, currently made, is the EMG PA2 which you can preset on an internal trim pot for up to 20db of gain.

Other various passive bass PUPs I have in my 8-strings:

Bartolini PJ sets...on my Pedulla 8 and a Hamer...VERY clean but good for recording a clean signal you can dirty up at the mixing board. Almost too clean for my taste, especially on a maple body & neck bass.

Late 80s OBL (Bill Lawrence)...HAMER's passive choice after the X2N. I think they stopped using them, in part, due to Bill Lawrence availability after the brand got tied up in a legal mess back then. Good choice for Hamer P/J configs...the humbucker ones are also good. I like them but they are hard to find, especially the humbucker sized ones.

Chrome U.S. Made Gibson Orville PUPs that were used in the Japan made TBirds. VERY high output and pretty much the same size as the EMGs Hamer used. I've used these in a number of Hamer 8-strings. I like them for straight into a live tube amp because they are hot enough to not need an onboard pre.

Instead of the onboard pre, I tend to use an old MXR Micro Amp stomp box...a white pedal that allows up to 26 db gain. I also run thru an old MXR DDL to fatten it out or double/phase the highs. That can get you a 12ver sound without muddying up the bottom and also letting you dial in the mush on the top, so you keep more of a clean attack/focus if you want.

BTW....I think I've owned too many Hamer 8-strings. The last five that have come up for sale were all ones that I have previously owned That black one you bought I really liked. Nice B8S. Only let it go with the matching B4S to make a trade happen.

[Kleingeld]

There is some great info here. (MC2, I also have that very same MXR Micro Amp box. That's a great suggestion.)

I've decided to go with the DiMarzio D Activator X neck pickups at the first go with this. It will be significantly cheaper and much quicker than going the custom PUP route, and will likely achieve very similar results. Here's my final question on this: will I lose the respect of this esteemed board if I go with the black/cream combo on the pickups? Given that the bass is all black, I think the two lines of cream at the pickups would look cool. If it looks crappy, I can always toss a couple covers over them.

[chromium]

Re: the pickup colors... make it what you want! Just a matter of personal taste.

If it were mine, I'd probably either do both cream with cream rings (just to add some contrast to the all black look), or one creme and one zebra in the neck (ala the old Sunburst guitars...)

[maxschrek]

There is some great info here. (MC2, I also have that very same MXR Micro Amp box. That's a great suggestion.)

I've decided to go with the DiMarzio D Activator X neck pickups at the first go with this. It will be significantly cheaper and much quicker than going the custom PUP route, and will likely achieve very similar results. Here's my final question on this: will I lose the respect of this esteemed board if I go with the black/cream combo on the pickups? Given that the bass is all black, I think the two lines of cream at the pickups would look cool. If it looks crappy, I can always toss a couple covers over them.

I think you're gonna like those, that's what I have in currently in my B8s.

Re: the pickup colors... make it what you want! Just a matter of personal taste.

If it were mine, I'd probably either do both cream with cream rings (just to add some contrast to the all black look), or one creme and one zebra in the neck (ala the old Sunburst guitars...)

I'm with Chromium, cream pups/rings on a black bass will really set it off. My former B12s sported this look with amber witch hat knobs to boot, looked cool.

[maxschrek]

Ooh, just had a thought,Kleingeld, if it hasn't already been done, you're gonna need to pop out that bottom bridge bushing and drill a hole through to the control cavity to run a ground wire, otherwise you gonna buzz like a mufucka.

[marcnorth]

I had to do it on my 87 when I changed out the pups.

[chromium]

I also run thru an old MXR DDL to fatten it out or double/phase the highs. That can get you a 12ver sound without muddying up the bottom and also letting you dial in the mush on the top, so you keep more of a clean attack/focus if you want.

I've been using an old MXR M-118 with mine. I picked it up dead a few months ago and restored/resurrected it. That one sounds SWEET with the B12S. Due to its design, these are pretty crisp for an analog delay IMO.

Some subtle, tight slap-back is great for accentuating the attacks as you stated. Haven't tried it live, but its fun banging around with at home when I'm playing the 12ver more like a rhythm guitar...

[Kleingeld]

Coooooooool!

[Kleingeld]

Okay, I got the pickups and electronics in. I replaced the active EMGs with a pair of passive DiMarzio D Activator X neck pickups in black and cream. I also went with one black and one cream pickup ring. Going from active to passive involved adding a grounding wire to the bridge. For the electronics, I went with my usual set up of blend/master, volume/master, tone. The tone is also a push/pull switch. In the out position it cuts the pickups down to one rail each.

The sound of the DiMarzios is SO much better than the EMGs. It's night and day. The sound is now bright, clear, and full range making the tone control a useful part of the sound. Adding the push/pull also added additional of sonic range to the bass. This was exactly what I was shooting for.

Here are some crappy pictures. It looks much more impressive in person:

http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/DingBassSale/library/Hamer%20with%20DiMarzios?sort=3&page=1

[chromium]

Lookin' good! Nice setup with the blend and master...

I'm one of the rare breeds that actually uses tone controls. I kinda miss that on my B8S (early 2 p/u, 2 vol setup).

[maxschrek]

Beautiful! I love it!

[chromium]

Bumping up an older thread.

I didn't expect I'd get a chance to benefit from the info here... but I just had my first experience with the EMGs, and ended up going the same route. Pair of DP-221s to the rescue!

I'm really happy with the results so far, but will have my first chance to put it through the paces live this weekend.

I retained the EMG preamp for now, and simply wired the pickups into the existing harness.

[Kleingeld]

Good god, what a beautiful bass. I hope the pickups kick as much ass as that axe does!

[marcnorth]

Looks good! Glad to see it go to someone who will put it to good use.

[elduave]

When I used an 8 string (Warmoth, mind you) I had a dedicated eq pedal to keep it in line with my 4 string sonic nature. I think it would be flat except for a low end boost.