Column array/Line array PA set-ups?

[hamerhead]

I'm looking to downsize the PA. I've heard the Bose stick thingys a few times and thought they sounded great. The price, not so much.

Any less-expensive column array alternatives you'd recommend? I'm looking for garage jam/small club size.

Thanks.

[HSB0531]

On 9/22/2022 at 4:40 PM, JGale said:

Found one source.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/833674085/harbinger-mls900-mls1000-compact-mode

Heh. "Shrinkage."

I installed an early Bose version of this in a NYC Church, (circa 2002 maybe).  One thing we found was that the HF section would suffer from dynamic compression.  This is when the voice coil heats up and the coil resistance goes up thus bringing down the efficiency (lower sound output with the same wattage input).  The speakers inside these very narrow cabinets have very small voice coils which heat up very quickly.   If I were using one of these in a club I would put a stereo buss compressor on the L/R output of the mixing console to help keep audio peaks down.    We used to call the Bose version of this, the Amar Stick (Amar Bose)

 

[HSB0531]

Regarding the Mic choices, I'm finding that almost every manufacturer is making some really good ones.  It's getting to a point where you just have to try them and see what's better suited for your personal vocal.

SM-58, Beta58, Beta 87A, Beta 87C, Sennheiser E-945 are ones I've used and liked.  But there's great Mics from Beyer Dynamic , AKG, EV, Audix, and many more in all price ranges.   Go to youtube.com and search out the "this vs that" mic vocal shootouts, and use headphones to listen.

[hamerhead]

What I've been finding with some of those 'shootouts' is that it isn't so much what you're listening with but what they're recorded on. Good speakers or headphones help, but some of the recording equipment they use (phones, mostly) suck hard.

[hamerhead]

Quick initial Harbinger review: Stupid good for the money.

The sub part of the package finally came today so I set them up (takes about 5 minutes) in the garage, hooked my trusty Discman straight in and grabbed an Eric Johnson CD. At first I hooked them up in stereo the way they tell you to, running an XLR from one to the other. That way the controls on the master runs both units. It was OK but not great.

Then I ran the right out to the mono in on one and the left out to the mono in on the other and thought it sounded a lot better. The garage is 20 feet wide and 30 feet deep. Inside there it was loud and clear at 3/4 volume. And for 8" subs they had a nice punch. Outside the garage it was still plenty loud but the low end dropped off. By loud I mean small-club do-able. And that's just trying them with a CD, not a band.

Saturday I'll get to try them with the band. We'll see how they fly. I plan on running just vocals and a bit of kick drum re-enforcement, but from what I heard today they should be just fine. I'm really surprised they sound this good for that money.

More later......

 

[HSB0531]

On 9/24/2022 at 10:59 PM, hamerhead said:

What I've been finding with some of those 'shootouts' is that it isn't so much what you're listening with but what they're recorded on. Good speakers or headphones help, but some of the recording equipment they use (phones, mostly) suck hard.

Yes, you're right unfortunately.  Whenever a device is under test, the entire signal chain has to be up to or better than the specifications of the DUT. 

This happens far too much in the realm of acoustic analysis as well.   Software/sound card based analyzers like Smaart can show spurious high frequency noises that are caused not by the Smaart software or the room & speakers,, but by the sound card installed in the laptop.  This and an inferior analog to USB Mic Pre- can result in inaccurate measurements which are critical to the design and install of a sound system. 

 

[Biz Prof]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:01 PM, HSB0531 said:

Regarding the Mic choices, I'm finding that almost every manufacturer is making some really good ones.  It's getting to a point where you just have to try them and see what's better suited for your personal vocal.

SM-58, Beta58, Beta 87A, Beta 87C, Sennheiser E-945 are ones I've used and liked.  But there's great Mics from Beyer Dynamic , AKG, EV, Audix, and many more in all price ranges.   Go to youtube.com and search out the "this vs that" mic vocal shootouts, and use headphones to listen.

Good advice, thanks. After reading a few hundred reviews, watching a few demos, and testing out an Audix, a Beta 58, and an e835, I pulled the trigger on an e935 from Sweetwater.  All three of the mics I demo'ed sounded good, but the Sennheiser had a crispness that was a bit better than the others. 

[scottcald]

1 hour ago, Biz Prof said:

Good advice, thanks. After reading a few hundred reviews, watching a few demos, and testing out an Audix, a Beta 58, and an e835, I pulled the trigger on an e935 from Sweetwater.  All three of the mics I demo'ed sounded good, but the Sennheiser had a crispness that was a bit better than the others. 

I mean, you can't really go wrong with any of those.  I initially went with the Audix stuff for their great feedback rejection.  

[HSB0531]

6 hours ago, Biz Prof said:

Good advice, thanks. After reading a few hundred reviews, watching a few demos, and testing out an Audix, a Beta 58, and an e835, I pulled the trigger on an e935 from Sweetwater.  All three of the mics I demo'ed sounded good, but the Sennheiser had a crispness that was a bit better than the others. 

I've been using my e945 for a good 10 years now and for the same reasons you picked the e835.  It had a sweeter top end than the SM58 I used. I still like the SM58 though.

The nice thing these days is that there's many great vocal mics to choose from.

[scottcald]

4 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

I've been using my e945 for a good 10 years now and for the same reasons you picked the e835.  It had a sweeter top end than the SM58 I used. I still like the SM58 though.

The nice thing these days is that there's many great vocal mics to choose from.

Definitely.  And if you can go somewhere to audition them, you can really get the right one for you instead of just getting a 58.  Great mic, but with the options, why not have the one where you sound your best?

[HSB0531]

10 hours ago, scottcald said:

Definitely.  And if you can go somewhere to audition them, you can really get the right one for you instead of just getting a 58.  Great mic, but with the options, why not have the one where you sound your best?

Another thing about choosing the right Mic is that if a person sings with an emphasis in the midrange, a Mic with more low and high frequency boost could balance their vocal better.   An SM58 would be better for midrange presence on a vocal that's lacking in midrange.  A very flat response Mic like a Shure KSM137,  a Warm Audio WA-47Jr,  a Beyerdynamic M88,  or the Audix VX10 would be perfect for situations where a natural response is critical.

[hamerhead]

OK, the Saturday Night Jam Stress Test: I'm waaaaay impressed.

After hooking them up to the board (2 XLRs and done - no extra cables for power amps or subs...) I again ran my trusty Discman and wow, what a great sound. Sure, it isn't audiophile stuff, but the punch and clarity is there and without the harshness that the old EV's 15"/horn combo could bring. These have a nice full range anywhere in the room. 

I still have some dialing in to do. There was a high-end feedback that I was having trouble tracking down (I'm not a sound guy), so that'll be a priority. The board (and my brain) was set for the EVs, so some re-thinking will need to be done. It might just be where they were set up. I had them behind the band, dividing the room in thirds. Spacing them farther apart might help?

ALL of the other musicians were impressed (not easy to do...). There was a lot of 'Really? Holy shit' going on.

AND - probably the biggest plus of all - the total weight of the two Harbinger arrays is maybe 20 pounds more than ONE of the old EVs. Yes, the EVs would blow them outta the water with sheer muscle. But for portability and sound quality (especially at that price) the Harbingers are absolute no-brainers. At least for my situation. I'm pretty sure they'll handle a small club. You won't go deaf, but you won't go broke, either.

[BruceM]

Thanks for the review!

I purchased two of these as well when they were on sale, but have not put them through the 4-3-2-1 Club crash test yet, which includes three LOUD guitarists playing with a LOUD drummer and a LOUD bass player in my basement. 

I did however, put one of them through a Famous Volcanoes test last night.  The band came over for a rehearsal before a wedding performance next week, and the sound was stellar and quite easy to set up and dial in.  I just ran the monitor out signal from my PA head into the Harbinger, then turned the old PA down, and the new speaker up.  We played acoustic instruments without amplification, guitar, mandolin and banjo, with electric bass.  Running at low volume, it sounded stellar.  This band is practiced at this type of performance, as we've done the bluegrass thing with all vocals going through one mic.  For this practice, each of four vocalists was using an individual SM58 or SM57.  It was very easy to blend the vocals by backing off the mics when necessary.  All in all, it was a pleasing experience with comments like, crisp vocals with lots of mids.  I'm not sure if this will become our preferred PA for gigging, but we'll certainly use it when we set up in my front yard and play the park.

I'll have to give it a shot next time the 4-3-2-1 All-Stars show up, and see if they can handle the LOUD test.

[HSB0531]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:43 AM, hamerhead said:

OK, the Saturday Night Jam Stress Test: I'm waaaaay impressed.

After hooking them up to the board (2 XLRs and done - no extra cables for power amps or subs...) I again ran my trusty Discman and wow, what a great sound. Sure, it isn't audiophile stuff, but the punch and clarity is there and without the harshness that the old EV's 15"/horn combo could bring. These have a nice full range anywhere in the room. 

I still have some dialing in to do. There was a high-end feedback that I was having trouble tracking down (I'm not a sound guy), so that'll be a priority. The board (and my brain) was set for the EVs, so some re-thinking will need to be done. It might just be where they were set up. I had them behind the band, dividing the room in thirds. Spacing them farther apart might help?

ALL of the other musicians were impressed (not easy to do...). There was a lot of 'Really? Holy shit' going on.

AND - probably the biggest plus of all - the total weight of the two Harbinger arrays is maybe 20 pounds more than ONE of the old EVs. Yes, the EVs would blow them outta the water with sheer muscle. But for portability and sound quality (especially at that price) the Harbingers are absolute no-brainers. At least for my situation. I'm pretty sure they'll handle a small club. You won't go deaf, but you won't go broke, either.

That's Really Good News!!

[hamerhead]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:58 AM, BruceM said:

I'll have to give it a shot next time the 4-3-2-1 All-Stars show up, and see if they can handle the LOUD test.

I'm interested in what you find, Bruce. Our guitarist/singer commented again the other night how good they sounded. We also had two drummers for the first time - one of 'em a real pounder - which was cool but meant everything was louder than normal. I thought they had plenty enough power to handle that but feedback was the limiting factor. Spending a little more time with them will help.

[Tortious]

On 9/22/2022 at 11:39 AM, hamerhead said:

The Harbinger MLS900s: https://harbingerproaudio.com/mls900-personal-line-array-pa-system/

 they were $300 (1/2 price) as a Stupid Deal of the Day today, so I ordered two for $600.

 

This is back today. https://www.musiciansfriend.com/stupid