Surprise of the Year: Under Gibson Ownership, Mesa Boogie is Reissuing Amps - The Mark IIC+ Returns

[Cboss]

17 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Unlikely. I watched it happen in lots of Mesa Boogie online groups, and it was a lot of bored people who started it in the early pandemic years, including one guy who some people said had his wife leave him because he was spending so much money on scooping up every Mark IIC+ he could find. He of course would then have a lot of them put into brand new headshells he got from Mesa, and then passed them off as heads and not converted combos. Not like it really matters, but he also got called out for unsolicited PMS making lowball offers any time someone posted pictures of a IIC+ or some Mark III amps. He was also called out for never actually posting sound clips, or any attempts to show himself playing. I'm pretty sure he and others like him were pretty much speculating on IIC+ prices, and ended up making a ton of money selling them off as the prices soared.

At that point Gibson hadn't even bought Mesa, and the company was also pretty much shut down due to lack of transformers. That was another thing that really played into making the prices go through the roof: you couldn't buy any NEW Mesa amps.

So if there are no Transformers available how is Gibson going to reissue the amp?

[tbonesullivan]

31 minutes ago, Cboss said:

So if there are no Transformers available how is Gibson going to reissue the amp?

They managed to get Schumacher to start making transformers again after Magnetic Components / Marvel Electronics shut down, and there are other makers if they need them. I believe the Schumacher transformers for guitar amps are being made in Mexico, but I heard weird things about original tooling being used.

However, the thing is that they can't make the 100-162318 and 105-162318 transformers the way that they were originally made, and a lot of people consider them to be the 'secret sauce' in the Mark IIC+. I can't ever get a "real" answer as to what material or technique was used then that can't be used now.

[Cboss]

Mercury magnetics has a line of Transformers that they claim are based on and will sound the same as the famous Originals we all think of, they apparently bought several of each of the originals, took them apart, supposedly figured out the secret sauce and now build something that is identical tonewise..if that is actually true I bet there will be some people there that could answer your question, and they might have actually done this with the Transformers you are referencing

[HSB0531]

15 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Yeah, and I also keep hearing from techs like Psionic Audio on youtube that eventually Axial capacitors are going away in favor of radial. They are barely used in new production now, so it's only so long before they'll have to find new ways to wire up the "dog house" in all the older Fender amps.

Or they will just put tiny radials inside larger "vintage" looking cardboard tubes, like they already do with a lot of the axials already.

Yes, and I believe it's because they are able make higher capacitance, higher voltage caps in smaller and smaller packages.  Circuit board can be smaller and board traces can be shorter to each cap. There's also  SMD/SMT Polymer caps:

[Cboss]

They are not going to stop making these.. look at the list of equipment they are used in, and they very extensive range of values/ voltage/temperature ratings

https://www.ftcap.de/en/products/electrolytic-capacitors/axial-lead/

[LucSulla]

This is definitely one of those things I end up buying to finally check out and end up selling at a loss a few months later after remembering I just don't like Mesas, lol. 

Though I really, really wish I'd never sold my Mark III Blue Stripe. That amp was an absolute monster. Every other Mark series amp I've ever bought that I hoped might be at least as good, including some that were supposedly better, just always fell short. 

I bought that back when you could get them with every option for under $1k, and as much as I loved it, I just can't get my head around spending 2 to 3 times more to have another these days. 

[tbonesullivan]

2 hours ago, Cboss said:

Mercury magnetics has a line of Transformers that they claim are based on and will sound the same as the famous Originals we all think of, they apparently bought several of each of the originals, took them apart, supposedly figured out the secret sauce and now build something that is identical tonewise..if that is actually true I bet there will be some people there that could answer your question, and they might have actually done this with the Transformers you are referencing

Last I checked, Mercury Magnetics does not make aftermarket versions of ANY of the Mesa Boogie Mark series transformers, though they make transformers for just about every other amplifier. Looking at the list of transformers they make, I don't see them for any of the "Simul-Class" amplifiers.

[RobB]

Thanks a BUNCH, dicks! You’re forcing me to check out a loaded, Mklll combo on my way to rehearsal tomorrow. 

[tbonesullivan]

7 minutes ago, RobB said:

Thanks a BUNCH, dicks! You’re forcing me to check out a loaded, Mklll combo on my way to rehearsal tomorrow. 

Oh boy, those are also quite nice. They also come in a lot of different flavors.

[HSB0531]

5 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

They managed to get Schumacher to start making transformers again after Magnetic Components / Marvel Electronics shut down, and there are other makers if they need them. I believe the Schumacher transformers for guitar amps are being made in Mexico, but I heard weird things about original tooling being used.

However, the thing is that they can't make the 100-162318 and 105-162318 transformers the way that they were originally made, and a lot of people consider them to be the 'secret sauce' in the Mark IIC+. I can't ever get a "real" answer as to what material or technique was used then that can't be used now.

Not Mesa related, but I remember having a discussion with an engineer at U.R.E.I. when they where owned by JBL.  We talked about how the power amps were built and he said they wound their own transformers in a vacuum to keep any air out of the coils during the winding process.  I remember how Crown MT600 and MT1200 power amp toroidal transformers would "play" whatever went through the inputs!.  No speakers connected and you heard the music through the transformer windings as they resonated.  I think that if someone were to provide a manufacturer with original 1980's era output and power transformers, they could get it made to that spec.

 

 

[RobB]

6 minutes ago, HSB0531 said:

Not Mesa related, but I remember having a discussion with an engineer at U.R.E.I. when they where owned by JBL.  We talked about how the power amps were built and he said they wound their own transformers in a vacuum to keep any air out of the coils during the winding process.  I remember how Crown MT600 and MT1200 power amp toroidal transformers would "play" whatever went through the inputs!.  No speakers connected and you heard the music through the transformer windings as they resonated.  I think that if someone were to provide a manufacturer with original 1980's era output and power transformers, they could get it made to that spec.

 

 

Yipes. This is a level of cork-sniffery heretofore never availed. Pass…

[HSB0531]

4 minutes ago, RobB said:

Yipes. This is a level of cork-sniffery heretofore never availed. Pass…

Yes it does seem that way, but after the winding process, the wound core was sealed with a coating and that kept any resonance out of the audio.  I bought a UREI 6290 amp and it was dead quiet.  The Crown amps weren't.

[HSB0531]

There's also CineMag    https://cinemag.biz//index.php

[RobB]

13 minutes ago, HSB0531 said:

Yes it does seem that way, but after the winding process, the wound core was sealed with a coating and that kept any resonance out of the audio.

Kill me. 

[DaveH]

14 minutes ago, HSB0531 said:

Yes it does seem that way, but after the winding process, the wound core was sealed with a coating and that kept any resonance out of the audio.  I bought a UREI 6290 amp and it was dead quiet.  The Crown amps weren't.

I've had transformers made to spec by Heyboer in the past. They make good stuff, and will work with you to get you what you want... Interleaving, wire type and size, impedances, and they keep the info on file so that if you ever need more they can just pull up the design and do it. This has been years ago, but they were very easy to deal with and reasonable, comparitively.

[Cboss]

2 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Oh boy, those are also quite nice. They also come in a lot of different flavors.

I see people use the term "loaded" in regards to these amps, what does it mean in this context? It sounds like a car term..leather seats instead of vinyl etc

[tbonesullivan]

41 minutes ago, Cboss said:

I see people use the term "loaded" in regards to these amps, what does it mean in this context? It sounds like a car term..leather seats instead of vinyl etc

Well. Mesa always offered hardwood cabinets and upgraded speakers for their early Mark series amps. They used to offer even more in the late 70s and early 80s in terms of speakers, but as Altec and JBL got out of guitar speakers, only the EVM-12L remained.

The Reverb (Option R) and Graphic EQ (Option G)also technically were "factory options", so you could get a Mark II or III without them if you wanted. They also were available in 3-4 different power ratings, and some also came with an export power transformer (Option EX) that could work internationally. Some also feel that the EX transformer added to the sound.

For the power ratings, the amps were available in Sixty Watts Class AB (S), Seventy-Five Watts Simul-Class (D), or One Hundred Watts Class AB(H). They also had some "Coliseum" models with 6 power tubes rated at something like 180 watts (K), but those are expensive and rare and loud as hell.

For the Mark II and Mark III amps, the naming scheme essentially starts with the Wattage letter, followed by reverb and/or the the graphic EQ, and then after that EX if it had the export power transformer. So, a Mark III S would be a sixty watt amp with no reverb or Graphic EQ. A Mark III HR would be a Hundred Watt Class AB with Reverb, and a DG  would be a seventy five watt Simul-Class amp with a graphic EQ but no reverb.

Fully loaded would usually be considered the DRG, as it has both options, and the upgraded power rating. The HRG might also be "fully loaded". A Mark III DRGEX would be more desirable due to the export transformer, and therefore more expensive. For a combo, the upgraded EV speaker and hardwood cabinet would also add to the cost.

To make things worse, the Mark III was made in five versions, called "stripes" as they were indicated by a colored marker line on the back by the power cord. First was the black stripe, followed by red, purple, blue, and finally green. There's a bit more information in the wikipedia page regarding the various stripes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa/Boogie_Mark_Series

Now, one of the big "problems" with the Mark I, II ,and III, is that like the Dumble Amp design, they aren't really multi-channel amps, but multi-mode amps with a shared EQ for all modes. The first "Volume" control is always in the circuit, and also is the pre-amp gain for the clean channel. The high gain mode adds onto that, so if you have the preamp volume for the clean mode set low, then you won't have as much gain available for the lead mode. The Mark III also has a "Rhythm mode" between the "clean" and "Lead" in gain, but it doesn't actually have any controls other than the switch to turn it on. It has a pre-set amount of gain added, and you have to use the Volume, Master, And gain controls to read a balance if you want to use all three modes effectively. There is a factory mod that they used to do that would replace one of the output jacks with a Rhythm 2 Volume control for this reason.

This is also the reason that when they made the Mark IV, They gave every mode/channel its own gain and master volume control, with the lead channel having both a lead gain and a lead drive control before the master volume. They also added the pull voicing controls to the individual controls, so you could set those differently for the different modes. Basically they actually made it so that you could have everything, but then also ended up making it extremely complicated, unless you were already familiar with how the Mark architecture worked.

And now for the most important thing to remember about EVERY Mesa Boogie mark series amplifier from the Mark 1 up to the Mark VII: They are based on the Fender Silverface Deluxe Reverb circuit and tone stack. This means that the entire tone stack is BEFORE the first volume / Gain. All of the cascading gain stages and so forth are after the tone stack. This means that the character of the overdrive is controlled by the tone stack, and also that if you want super high gain you better keep that bass control low or it'll flub out.

The first Marshall amps were a copy of the Fender Bassman 5F6-A circuit revision, which had the volume first, before a cathode follower and THEN the tone stack. Most other high gain amplifiers have followed this type of architecture, which is why many people get a Mesa Boogie mark series amp and have so much trouble getting it to sound good. This is also why the versions with the Graphic EQ are more desirable: you can shape both your pre and post cascading gain sound.

[tbonesullivan]

The TLDR version: Mesa boogie Mark amps are weird, and a Mark III and Mark IV are honestly the best bang for your buck on the used market, and also the Mark IV definitely gives you the most control out of ANY of the mark series amps with regards to the preamp sound and architecture. ANY.

[LucSulla]

2 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

 

The Mark III also has a "Rhythm mode" between the "clean" and "Lead" in gain, but it doesn't actually have any controls other than the switch to turn it on. It has a pre-set amount of gain added, and you have to use the Volume, Master, And gain controls to read a balance if you want to use all three modes effectively. There is a factory mod that they used to do that would replace one of the output jacks with a Rhythm 2 Volume control for this reason.
 

 Unless you sent it back to get it modded, like I did in 2015. Cap job and an R2 mod. Aside from the shared EQ, channel two was independent. You lost the slave function, but I never used that. 

And R2 on that amp was really good when you could set it up without making compromises for keeping R1 clean. It was as close to a "Marshall" type sound as any Mark series amp ever did. 

God, why did I sell that amp?

[RobB]

My idea of a, "loaded", Mklll would be:

Simul-class. I ran my MkllB in low-power mode and was plenty loud, boy howdy.

Reverb

5-band EQ

Stripe? Who knows? As long as it sounds good...

Not sure about the R2 mod. I ran the "clean channel" with a hint of hair, and used the guitar volume knobs to balance the "lead channel" between o/d chords and saturated lead.

[Devnor]

"Loaded" is an old school Boogie term.  They use it in some of the old price lists including the one I was given when I was trying to decide options in 1989. The base model was 60W without reverb, GEQ or higher power (100W mode, simulclass). Since then, I've always called those amps with the all the options as "loaded".

[Cboss]

1 hour ago, Devnor said:

"Loaded" is an old school Boogie term.  They use it in some of the old price lists including the one I was given when I was trying to decide options in 1989. The base model was 60W without reverb, GEQ or higher power (100W mode, simulclass). Since then, I've always called those amps with the all the options as "loaded".

Prior to this thread this is what came to mind when I heard the term loaded😋

[DaveH]

5 hours ago, Devnor said:

"Loaded" is an old school Boogie term. 

Crap, so I can't say things like "man that chick/dude is loaded!" now, without fear of Randall taking my ass to court and suing me for copyright infringement?

[tbonesullivan]

18 hours ago, LucSulla said:

Unless you sent it back to get it modded, like I did in 2015. Cap job and an R2 mod. Aside from the shared EQ, channel two was independent. You lost the slave function, but I never used that. 

And R2 on that amp was really good when you could set it up without making compromises for keeping R1 clean. It was as close to a "Marshall" type sound as any Mark series amp ever did. 

God, why did I sell that amp?

If you had the long head version with the reverb and power selector on the front panel, they could put the control where the reverb would have been.

I also have heard good things about the R2 mode, which originally was kind of a "pushed bassman" but then became the "marshall" sound channel. The Mark IV has a R2 channel as well, and most people hate on it simply because it's not the lead channel.

[LucSulla]

On 11/23/2024 at 11:29 PM, tbonesullivan said:

If you had the long head version with the reverb and power selector on the front panel, they could put the control where the reverb would have been.

I also have heard good things about the R2 mode, which originally was kind of a "pushed bassman" but then became the "marshall" sound channel. The Mark IV has a R2 channel as well, and most people hate on it simply because it's not the lead channel.

I never got R2 on the Mark IV to be something I liked myself. Not to say it couldn't have been, but clean and lead were good enough.