How do you get rid of these pesky Trojans?

[Matt Mattson]

Somehow, when Microsoft does this, they're "stifling competition".

What Billy-Bob and crew were doing was a little more complicated. They were giving away the operating system to manufacturers to get it on practically every computer worldwide, and selling other programs to make money. They also knew, that if they became the dominant operating system, all other programers would be using their architecture. Fine so far.

Now you come along and design a music program, it's selling like mad, and not much later your sales plunge when Microsoft comes out with a music program almost identical to yours. All they have to do is take your program, tweak it here and there, and wala -- new "must have" Billy Bob software. This is what made people so indignant (no matter the title of the lawsuit(s) and is the prime reason many absolutely loath Microsoft and jump aboard anytime there is a lawsuit against them.

[Lockbody]

I wonder if the sales dept. at Steinberg agree with Apple's practices?

And there are thousands of Logic for PC users who loath Apple for buying Logic and discontinuing PC support (Steinberg did like that, however.).

[mathman]

Agreed they're all good -- not a problem guy. We're all just one happy family.

Agreed.

And think of the plus side if you're a programer: the more people I can convince to get a Mac, the sooner you'll be able to sit at home and make music!

I'm already making music on my PC - have been for years. I guess that's where I take exception, but I know I'm well past belaboring the point already. I just feel like there's a consistent air of misinformation, but I'm not sure how I ever got caught up thinking it was my problem anyway.

It is misinformation on both sides. I'll tell you the truth, I don't like PC's cause I like Macs and that's cause I just want to do "stuff" on the computer, not do "stuff" to the computer. XP is better than earlier versions but I don't use it enough to remember how to do things on it. It is really a matter of what you know and what you want to do. I don't want to mess with or worry about viruses, virii? or any of the other crap that I find myself doing when I use the pc. I own logic but I end up using Garage band for most everything cause it just quick, fun, and capable. I know I am not creating the next hit record. Wish i was but I'm not. I just know my macs and the macs I deal with work well. My PC works fine too but I don't even have it connected to a network anymore. I've used Cubase, protools and some other programs on the PC and it just didn't work for me. The people I work with whom I help buy Macs come to me to help them use the programs on it. The people I help to buy a PC come to me to help them with problems. Not all of them on either side but it relates to my change in perception about what a computer is for. As I said before, now I use a computer to do or make "stuff" rather than to make the computer or do "stuff" to the computer.

It's all good!

[Mobster]

...(practically everything else comes loaded on your Mac (including Garageband -- part of I-life)....

Somehow, when Microsoft does this, they're "stifling competition".

Big difference here the way I see it, Lockbody.

When MS imbeds software into an operating system, that's darn near impossible to remove (until recently) and CHARGES PC manufacturers on a per unit basis for said operating system, whether a unit ships with Windows, Linux, Banyan, or whatever...well, that's an issue.

On the Logic front-Apple bought the company, why would they be under any obligation to continue to support a competing operating system?

I mean, I'm not really trying to start anything here with the Mac vs PC thing (I'll never go back to a PC except for the office), but it's just interesting to me how we look at this differently.

[md2020]

FWIW, Norton AntiVirus on the PC handled all this with no sweat. Forty bucks per year well spent.

[Matt Mattson]

Forty bucks per year well spent.

Absolutely agree. Of course, us Mac guys still have $40 in our pocket . . .

(just funin' with ya')

[MrGuitarguy]

I've created a monster! *Best Colin Clive imitation* "It's alive! It's alive!!!*

(seriously this was not my intention at all)

Look, when it all comes down to it the problems with PC's aren't related to a bad OS. It's related to mass popularity. Macs don't have nearly as many hardware issues because there's very limited hardware for them, and that comes from basically one place (now two with intel). There are hardly any viruses for mac because it's not popular enough to have them(seriously, the ratio pf PC's to Macs is more than 20:1. It's actually about 4.6% - ).

If it was the other way around. Macs would have hardware problems due to the massive amout of hardware made for them, which would be so much that it would be possible to make it all work, not to mention the fact that most of it would be produced after the system was written and released. Macs would also have all the viruses because everone would be using macs. Why write a virus for a small minority? What fun would that be for these losers? You'd hardly ever hear about the people who's computers you've fried.

Then PC's would have the small specialized hardware market and lack of viruses. It's not that mac did something that's so great, it's that they don't sell enough stuff to have these problems. If mac ever takes a major share of the personal computer market, you'll see all kinds of problems occuring with them.

On the audio/video front I guess I'm spoiled. I use Protools and Avid. (Granted that Avid is the Microsoft of media editing -Avid owns digidesign, which makes Protools- We call it Amateur Tools at work. )

Forty bucks per year well spent.

Absolutely agree. Of course, us Mac guys still have $40 in our pocket . . .

(just funin' with ya')

Of course you paid $1000 more for you mac than I did for the PC I built, which still smokes you mac! lol!

[Matt Mattson]

So to sum up -- the Mac just works and is virus free . . .

Thanks Colin -- I knew we could count on you!

I don't doubt that PC smokes! Two of them I had are now in the canal because of that very problem.

http://www.apple.com/logicpro/

[mathman]

I've created a monster! *Best Colin Clive imitation* "It's alive! It's alive!!!*

(seriously this was not my intention at all)

Look, when it all comes down to it the problems with PC's aren't related to a bad OS. It's related to mass popularity. Macs don't have nearly as many hardware issues because there's very limited hardware for them, and that comes from basically one place (now two with intel). There are hardly any viruses for mac because it's not popular enough to have them(seriously, the ratio pf PC's to Macs is more than 20:1. It's actually about 4.6% - ).

If it was the other way around. Macs would have hardware problems due to the massive amout of hardware made for them, which would be so much that it would be possible to make it all work, not to mention the fact that most of it would be produced after the system was written and released. Macs would also have all the viruses because everone would be using macs. Why write a virus for a small minority? What fun would that be for these losers? You'd hardly ever hear about the people who's computers you've fried.

The only thing wrong with this argument is that with the exception of some specific hardware (PCI) anything that can plug into a usb or firewire will usually work just fine on the mac. Just plug it in and use it. Many of the things that say Windows required work just fine like game controllers, scanners, printers etc. Since Macs control the hardware of the machine they can make it work better together. Windows has to deal with so many different venders for the main parts of the computer, hence their problems with hardware and drivers.

Then PC's would have the small specialized hardware market and lack of viruses. It's not that mac did something that's so great, it's that they don't sell enough stuff to have these problems. If mac ever takes a major share of the personal computer market, you'll see all kinds of problems occuring with them.

Mac OS X is designed to be less vulnerable to attack.

from Why linux and Mac OS X are safer

Why are Linux and Mac OS X safer?

First, look at the two factors that cause email viruses and worms to propagate: social engineering, and poorly designed software. Social engineering is the art of conning someone into doing something they shouldn't do, or revealing something that should be kept secret. Virus writers use social engineering to convince people to do stupid things, like open attachments that carry viruses and worms. Poorly designed software makes it easier for social engineering to take place, but such software can also subvert the efforts of a knowledgable, security-minded individual or organization. Together, the two factors can turn a single virus incident into a widespread disaster.

Let's look further at social engineering. Windows software is either executable or not, depending on the file extension. So if a file ends with ".exe" or ".scr", it can be run as a program (yes, of course, if you change a text file's extension from ".txt" to ".exe", nothing will happen, because it's not magically an executable; I'm talking about real executable programs). It's easy to run executables in the Windows world, and users who get an email with a subject line like "Check out this wicked screensaver!" and an attachment, too often click on it without thinking first, and bang! we're off to the races and a new worm has taken over their systems.

Even worse, Microsoft's email software is able to infect a user's computer when they do something as innocuous as read an email! Don't believe me? Take a look at Microsoft Security Bulletins MS99-032, MS00-043, MS01-015, MS01-020, MS02-068, or MS03-023, for instance. Notice that's at least one for the last five years. And though Microsoft's latest versions of Outlook blocks most executable attachments by default, it's still possible to override those protections. >>Editor's note: the above vulnerabilities, while valid, all had patches provided by Microsoft months before they were actively exploited by malicious code. This does not negate the fact that the vulnerabilities existed -- however there are also exploits for some Linux mail clients (Pine, mutt) that will execute code on a system when the user views the message as well. To bypass the security fix provided by Microsoft, the user must now take some specific actions as explained in the link above.>>

This sort of social engineering, so easy to accomplish in Windows, requires far more steps and far greater effort on the part of the Linux user. Instead of just reading an email (... just reading an email?!?), a Linux user would have to read the email, save the attachment, give the attachment executable permissions, and then run the executable. Even as less sophisticated users begin to migrate to Linux, they may not understand exactly why they can't just execute attachments, but they will still have to go through the steps. As Martha Stewart would say, this is a good thing. Further, due to the strong community around Linux, new users will receive education and encouragement in areas such as email security that are currently lacking in the Windows world, which should help to alleviate any concerns on the part of newbies.

Further, due to the strong separation between normal users and the privileged root user, our Linux user would have to be running as root to really do any damage to the system. He could damage his /home directory, but that's about it. So the above steps now become the following: read, save, become root, give executable permissions, run. The more steps, the less likely a virus infection becomes, and certainly the less likely a catastrophically spreading virus becomes. And since Linux users are taught from the get-go to never run as root, and since Mac OS X doesn't even allow users to use the root account unless they first enable the option, it's obvious the likelihood of email-driven viruses and worms lessens on those platforms.

Unfortunately, running as root (or Administrator) is common in the Windows world. In fact, Microsoft is still engaging in this risky behavior. Windows XP, supposed Microsoft's most secure desktop operating system, automatically makes the first named user of the system an Administrator, with the power to do anything he wants to the computer. The reasons for this decision boggle the mind. With all the lost money and productivity over the last decade caused by countless Microsoft-borne viruses and worms, you'd think the company could have changed its procedures in this area, but no.

___________________________________

Also look here. Pogue

Now, I’m sure you’ve heard the old saw, “The only reason the Mac has no viruses is that its market share is so small; hackers don’t even bother.”

But since I’m on a myth-busting roll lately, let me bust another one: That’s bunk.

If the Mac’s market share is five percent, then shouldn’t it have five percent of the viruses? It ought to have seen 5,700 viruses last year, not zero. Clearly, there’s something else at work here, and I’ll tell you what it is: Mac OS X is simply harder to hack.

Allow me to save some effort by quoting my own e-column from September 2003:

“* Windows XP originally came with many of its ports open; Mac OS X has always come with all of them shut and locked. (Ports are back-door channels to the Internet: one each for file sharing, remote login, FTP access, and so on.) These ports are precisely what permitted viruses like Blaster to infiltrate millions of PC’s. [Microsoft closed these holes in Service Pack 2.]

“* When a program tries to install itself in Mac OS X (or Linux), a dialog box interrupts your work and asks you permission for that installation - in fact, requires your account password. Windows XP goes ahead and installs it, potentially without your awareness.

“* Administrator accounts in Windows (and therefore viruses that exploit it) have access to all areas of the operating system. In Mac OS X, even an administrator can’t touch the files that drive the operating system itself. A Mac OS X virus (if there were such a thing) could theoretically wipe out all of your files, but wouldn’t be able to access anyone else’s stuff - and couldn’t touch the operating system itself.

“* No Macintosh e-mail program automatically runs scripts that come attached to incoming messages, as Microsoft Outlook does.”

These days, Mac OS X is even more secure. For example:

* Dialog boxes now alert you whenever you even download a file that could contain or conceal executable code (that is, a program, as opposed to a document).

* You can opt to make your Mac invisible to “pings” from the Internet, a common tactic of spammers who are looking for available machines to turn into spam relay stations.

Now, before you start your poison pens: this note is not intended to be a big Apple advertisement. It’s true that Mac OS X is tougher to crack than *Windows XP*, but this advantage may not have a lot of life left. I believe that Windows Vista will be about as secure as Mac OS X, because Microsoft has closed most or all of the weaknesses I’ve just described.

I’m holding my breath to see if Vista does, in fact, put an end to the environment of fear and vulnerability that haunts many Windows fans today - although I’m sure Microsoft has been holding *its* breath even longer.

___________________________________________________

Look, I don't care if you don't want to use Mac's but please don't try to pass of misinformation as fact.

[md2020]

(just funin' with ya')

I hear ya. Just an FYI for those with a PC looking for a reliable solution. The first Symantec product I used was their anti-virus for the Mac back in the late '80s. Their stuff has always worked well for me on either platform.

[Matt Mattson]

All I know is that it seems the more creative a person is, the more likely it is they are using a Mac.

I'm ready . . .

[kenjones]

I once heard somebody say that the reason that there are so many more viruses for Windows is because Mac users are too busy using their computers to do real work.

(Let the flamegates open!)

[md2020]

They appear to do wonders for one's self-image, too!

[Matt Mattson]

Since switching to the Mac, I have noticed my hair thickening and physique improving, although it could be my imagination since that's what the Swedish Bikini Team tells me.

[MrGuitarguy]

The only thing wrong with this argument is that with the exception of some specific hardware (PCI) anything that can plug into a usb or firewire will usually work just fine on the mac. Just plug it in and use it. Many of the things that say Windows required work just fine like game controllers, scanners, printers etc. Since Macs control the hardware of the machine they can make it work better together. Windows has to deal with so many different venders for the main parts of the computer, hence their problems with hardware and drivers.

You'll note I only refered to two makers of Mac hardware. I was implying specific hardware for pc's and macs. Not hardware that is generic and works in all computers. I should have phrased it differently. No biggie. But you are correct, mac controls their hardware, and thus how it works.

If the Mac’s market share is five percent, then shouldn’t it have five percent of the viruses? It ought to have seen 5,700 viruses last year, not zero. Clearly, there’s something else at work here, and I’ll tell you what it is: Mac OS X is simply harder to hack.

HAHAHA!!! I was a PR major. Basically they train you to manipulate data, put spin on situations and inforamtion, pot BS and deal with the public. This guy needs a few classes and some basic reasoning!!! lol! I've had to fix a lot of busted, infected macs in tech support! And they don't all ask you for installation permission! I call BS!

"A Mac OS X virus (if there were such a thing) could theoretically wipe out all of your files..."

Here are a couple of viruses for mac OS X:

Switchback virus

Mac/Cowhand Virus

MP3Concept

SH.Renepo.B

MacOS.MW2004.Trojan

Make no mistake. They're out there. One fried my bassist's laptop harddrive a couple of weeks ago. Poor bastard lost a lot of important stuff and he kept all his software updated religously. He's a very savy user.

I stand by my findings, which are only on experiance in tech support and my personal experiances. But my opinion on computers really shouldn't matter to anyone. Use what you like. Eventually they all break down and frustrate you no matter who makes it. Both designs have A LOT of flaws. But they're awesome until that happens! Best of luck to all of you with your technology. I can't get along without it anymore and it makes me crazy.

Alright. I'm done. No more reading this thread. Post what you will. This is going to go to a bad place eventually. I NEVER intended this to get this big. lol! I love you guys!

[Matt Mattson]

Colin: that MP3concept -- was that a deliverable file over the I-net that is passed on new MP3 creation by the victim to another user (via internet)?

[BCR Greg]

SHE started it!!!!

[mathman]

Switchback virus - I won't bother to detail everything that must happen for this "virus" to infect a computer but if you are running OS X 1.2.5 or 1.2.6 beware. I think mainly it would have to really exist. I'll let Anne Onymus tell you about it.

Mac/Cowhand Virus - it is a trojan not a virus

MP3Concept - again trojan. Description

Mac.Mp3Concept!exploit is a proof-of-concept exploit. The exploit is used by a trojan that appears and acts like an MP3 audio file, but contains code that executes as an application (non-malicious, in this case).

While at the time of publishing, Computer Associates had received no reports of this exploit being used 'in-the-wild', this particular proof-of-concept received a lot of attention from various sources in early to mid 2004.

Users should note that this trojan contains no destructive payload, cannot spread of its own accord and only affects users of the Mac OS X platform.

The file appears as an MP3 audio file (see example below):

SH.Renepo.B a worm

Note that any attacker trying to plant this worm in your network would need to get root access on one of your boxes first, meaning that you would already be "owned". Nevertheless, SH/Renepo-A collects into a single script a wide range of anti-security attacks. Once the worm has run on your computer, it will compromise system security in many ways, including:

MacOS.MW2004.Trojan - That's right a trojan.

I won't argue that people can be made to do stupid things to their computers nor will I blame the computers.

Unless of course the computer can be infected by doing simple everyday things such as turning on a new computer or checking your email.

Needless to say that isn't a problem for me and my mac.

for more information check out definitions of virus, worms and trojans

SHE started it!!!!

that's a cool clip. Dang she sure got too skinny for a while.

[BCR Greg]

that's a cool clip. Dang she sure got too skanky for a while.

Fixed it for ya.

[Matt Mattson]

Last time I had a dream like that I had to buy a new bed.

[darc]

All I know is that it seems the more creative a person is, the more likely it is they are using a Mac.

This is crap logic, largely untrue, and again based on things as they were 10+ years ago. (It seems to me that the less technical and more image conscious someone is, the more likely they are using a mac; I'd give you that. Oh this poor, dead horse.) Most creative apps are cross-platform these days, and many are PC-only for that matter. Of those that are cross-platform, many are better supported on the PC. I could post an entire screen of links to poor Mac musicians waiting on fixes for Audio Units plugins, UB upgrades, and on and on. They are not happy campers. I could have us reading all day but I'm too busy trying to unbunch my panties.

Mathman's points about OS security, on the other hand, are solid and objective. It's true that Windows XP is pretty much wide open by default, and someone has to go well out of their way to "batten down the hatches." 9x out of 10 (random statistic) there is no one around who knows how to do so - or cares until they get burned. Since I'm my own sys admin, and pretty much a cowboy when it comes to blowing things up and rebuilding them again, I've never had the perspective to find fault with this. But I agree, it is a mark against the PC and for the Mac.

This horse is attracting flies now. Peee-yew.

[mathman]

that's a cool clip. Dang she sure got too skanky for a while.

Fixed it for ya.

Thanks you're spot on as usual.

All I know is that it seems the more creative a person is, the more likely it is they are using a Mac.

This is crap logic, largely untrue, and again based on things as they were 10+ years ago. (It seems to me that the less technical and more image conscious someone is, the more likely they are using a mac; I'd give you that. Oh this poor, dead horse.) Most creative apps are cross-platform these days, and many are PC-only for that matter. Of those that are cross-platform, many are better supported on the PC. I could post an entire screen of links to poor Mac musicians waiting on fixes for Audio Units plugins, UB upgrades, and on and on. They are not happy campers. I could have us reading all day but I'm too busy trying to unbunch my panties.

Mathman's points about OS security, on the other hand, are solid and objective. It's true that Windows XP is pretty much wide open by default, and someone has to go well out of their way to "batten down the hatches." 9x out of 10 (random statistic) there is no one around who knows how to do so - or cares until they get burned. Since I'm my own sys admin, and pretty much a cowboy when it comes to blowing things up and rebuilding them again, I've never had the perspective to find fault with this. But I agree, it is a mark against the PC and for the Mac.

This horse is attracting flies now. Peee-yew.

I think Matt was just waving a stick around and waiting to see if someone would poke their eye out with it.

Your right about Audio Units etc but it has progressed recently. The change from VST to AU was a pain and fustrating when you have to pay to upgrade software just to work with new hardware or hardware you bought at the time of the original package. Just finally last night realized there was an upgrade to Bias Peak DV 3 that I owned and now all my VST plugins work for the first time. I had sorta gave up on it.

I've recommended many people I work with to continue to buy PC's and I converted a few to the Mac. They all seem happy and that's all that matters. I just don't like to see false information either way.

Taking off the boots and getting out.

Kirk

[BCR Greg]

I think Matt was just waving his dick around and waiting to see if someone would poke their eye out with it.

Fixed it for ya.

[Matt Mattson]

I think Matt was just waving his dick around and waiting to see if someone would poke their eye out with it.

Fixed it for ya.

It worked!

If you wave it, they will come . . .

"Just finally last night realized there was an upgrade to Bias Peak DV 3 that I owned and now all my VST plugins work for the first time. I had sorta gave up on it."

I went over the BIAS stuff here:

http://www.apple.com/logicpro/studiogear.html

I've got some of their stuff too, that came with Logic (I didn't install it).

I have not used Logic for years and years and years -- by the time I started using it, it works fine, so naturally I'm unbelievably happy, after trying to make music and video on Windows (pre-2000) and being stymied over an over with multiple programs to learn, hardware and software issues out the wazoo, etc. If they've got all that sorted out -- great.

___________

Certainly didn't mean to cause any trouble . . . (hey, psst., you, there's a fight over here, there's a fight, fight, fight, fight)

[mathman]

I think Matt was just waving his dick around and waiting to see if someone would poke their eye out with it.

Fixed it for ya.

Thanks again

Well I was originally going to say hot poker as in Fireplace utensil but not really knowing Matt personally I didn't want to imply anything....

Dang, where's them boots?