1970's Zildjian Cymbal question - Johnny B ?

[Turdus]

Back in the 70's, everybody had Zildjian cymbals. But which ones?

Today, you can buy several different crash cymbals within each series... For example, I like the A series. You can get Fast, Thin, Paper Thin, Medium, Rock Crash, etc.

I don't how long these options have been offered, but I'd like to get the ones that sounds like they are from the 70's. They need to have that "mojo", or play like butter, if that is possible. What would Bonham or Simon Kirke have used?

[JohnnyB]

Back in the 70's, everybody had Zildjian cymbals. But which ones?

Today, you can buy several different crash cymbals within each series... For example, I like the A series. You can get Fast, Thin, Paper Thin, Medium, Rock Crash, etc.

I don't how long these options have been offered, but I'd like to get the ones that sounds like they are from the 70's. They need to have that "mojo", or play like butter, if that is possible. What would Bonham or Simon Kirke have used?

Back then, almost anyone who played pro drums used Avedis Zildjian cymbals, made by Turkish immigrants in Quincy, Massachusetts. Every cymbal was hand-forged and hand-hammered, and then aged for a couple of years. There were no sheet bronze Zildjians, no machine hammered ones, no ZBT or Razor lines of low-cost entry-level cymbals. I remember lusting after the 24" Zildjian ride listed in my 1964 Ludwig catalog, priced at $75 for a single cymbal! That would be $513 in today's money. Back then, nearly everyone (Ludwig, Rogers, Slingerland) distributed Avedis Zildjian cymbals, except Gretsch, who distributed K Zildjians from Istanbul, Turkey. Gretsch small bass drum kits appealed to the be-boppers such as Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Art Blakey, etc., so many of those small combo jazzers played K Zildjians instead. But when it came to most rockers, they played USA-made Avedis Zildjians. Also Buddy Rich used and endorsed Avedis Zildjians from the beginning to the end of his career.

The really cool Zildjians were from pre 1968-ish or thereabouts. Around that time Avedis Zildjian Co. of Quincy, Mass changed copper suppliers. It's not that the later ones are bad, it's just that the earlier ones are exquisite and were always aged around 2 years before a stick ever hit them. I have a mid-'60s vintage 22" medium ride and it's magic for jazz, though probably has a bit too much wash for rock ride.

When I was most active on drums, throughout the '70s, I had a full set of 1965 Avedis Zildjians (which evolved into the A Zildjian line) that came with a used Ludwig kit I bought in 1970. Back then A Zildjian and K Zildjian were bitter rivals. A Zildjian were the part of the family business that came to the US and K Zildjian was the part of the family that stayed in Istanbul, Turkey. Both laid claim to having the 350-yr-old secret family formula. Since both brands sounded great, I think they both were telling the truth but each had a different spin on the formula or manufacturing process. Generally speaking (IMO) the K Zildjians were a bit brighter and faster. The Avedis Zildjians had more midrange and body. Both are great but in slightly different ways. Like you, I looooove 40+ year old A Zildjians.

Add to that Zildjian's Canadian operation called Zilco. This division went independent and became Sabian. I don't know the whole history, but evidently sometime during the 15 years when I wasn't drumming, A and K Zildjian merged and Sabian emerged, but the merged Zildjian co. kept both the A and K formulas and product lines.

So anyway, conventional wisdom would say that the A Zildjians are the direct descendants of Avedis Zildjian cymbals, and I suspect if you get New Beat Hi-hats, an A Z thin crash, and a medium to medium-heavy 20" to 22" ride, you'll get into that '70s ball park.

But I suggest you expand your search (and by that, I mean going to a showroom and hitting and listening to a lot of cymbals) to the forged Sabian lines -- AA, AAX, HH, HHX, etc. (but NOT B8). I feel like some of the Sabian forged cymbals have a very similar vibe to the mid-'60s Avedis Zildjians, and I played those '60s Zildjians for a dozen years straight. My current kit has a mix of '40s A Zildjian hi-hats, the 22" mid-'60 A Zildjian ride, a late '90s 21" Sabian AA Rock Ride, a 10" K Zildjian splash (sounds like a high fast crash), a 16" Sabian AAX Studio Crash (very similar to a '60s A Zildjian, but a little cleaner sounding with less "whang") and a 2004 8" A Zildjian splash. In spite of their diverse origins, they sound very good together and provide a wide palette of tonal colors.

[Turdus]

Thanks for that great info JB!

I've got a nice 20" Medium ride, and a pair of 14" New Beats.

My biggest issue is fining the right crash cymbals. I've got 16" and 18" Rock Crashes.... way too loud, with too long a decay. I've got a 14" and 16" paper thin crash. These are not bad, but are lacking something. Maybe I need to move away from the 14" and go with an 18" ? I've also got a 14" Thin crash. I almost think this was labeled wrong. It seems similar in thickness to the rock crashes. I don't like the sound of that one.

Ideally I'd like something that does not pierce the ear drums, but has a pleasing tone, with not too much decay. Does that sound like a thin 16" or 18" would do the trick?

[Armitage]

Great post!

[unfun75]

Bonham played Paiste 2002's.

[JohnnyB]

Thanks for that great info JB!

I've got a nice 20" Medium ride, and a pair of 14" New Beats.

Great! That should nail down the '70s sound really well.

My biggest issue is finding the right crash cymbals. I've got 16" and 18" Rock Crashes.... way too loud, with too long a decay. I've got a 14" and 16" paper thin crash. These are not bad, but are lacking something. Maybe I need to move away from the 14" and go with an 18" ? I've also got a 14" Thin crash. I almost think this was labeled wrong. It seems similar in thickness to the rock crashes. I don't like the sound of that one.

Ideally I'd like something that does not pierce the ear drums, but has a pleasing tone, with not too much decay. Does that sound like a thin 16" or 18" would do the trick?

You're looking for what's called a "fast crash." Zildjian makes them in the "A" series, so that should cover your vintage tastes plus the response and decay you're looking for. They also make fast crashes in the A Custom line, which claim to have a more "modern" sound. Make sure you take a look at Sabian's AAX Studio Crash series. I have a 16" AAX Studio Crash and love it. Given their "studio" orientation, they are fast with fast decay, well-defined but not the least bit "whangy" or irritating. I actually like mine better than the 1965 vintage 16" Avedis Zildjian crash I had.

As for diameter, it depends on the sound you're looking for. For cymbals in a given series (e.g. A Zildjian Fast Crash), the diameter is going to determine the pitch of the cymbal. A 16" will sound higher, an 18 deeper. It's relative to the given line, however. Go to Zildjian and Sabian's websites, drill down to the A Zildjian Fast Crashes, the A Custom Fast Crashes, and the Sabian AAX Studio Crashes and compare the sound samples. The Sabians for a given diameter have a higher pitch than the equivalent A Zildjians. Personally I like the AAX Studios better than the A Zildjian Fast Crashes, but YMMV. Also, if you're undecided between a 16" and 18", try the 17" as both companies make that diameter in those cymbal series. There are also differences between A Zildjian and A Custom. Use good headphones or run the samples through a sound system to hear them in full fidelity. I'm running the samples through my hi-rez stereo rig and the tonal characteristics are easy to hear and differentiate.

If you hear what I'm hearing, the Sabian Studio has a cleaner sound with less lower midrange "whang" than the A Zildjian. It's fast and decays quickly.

Between the two, you'll have an easier time scoring a used AAX at a good price than the A Zildjian, and to these ears they're at least as good.

[Thundernotes]

Yes - the fast crash (15 was my favorite) is a great cymbal.

[JohnnyB]

Bonham played Paiste 2002's.

So has Simon Kirke since 1971 when the 2002 came out.

Woops.

In that case, go to the Paiste website and check out the sound samples. Start with the Series 2002 crashes, as this line was introduced in 1971 and that's what Bonzer and Kirke played as soon as they came out.

Check out the Thin Crash in the Twenty Series as well. In the Signature Series you'll find Fast Crashes. Of Paiste's various series, I think I like the Signatures best, but my experience with Paiste is very limited because of my personal preferences:

1) I always liked the sound of cast Zildjians and Sabians better, 2) Paistes cost more, 3) The cast bronze Zildjians and Sabians tend to hold up longer.

I just did some price checking on MF, and the Sabian AAX series, the A Zildjian series, and the Paiste 2002 series are all in the same price range: an 18" AAX Studio or A Zildjian Fast crash is $225; the Paiste 2002 is $245. But from there the Paistes get pricey fast--like $368 for the Signature Fast Crash. By contrast the Sabian HH (hand-hammered) 18" crash is $305 and has a 2-year warranty.

[unfun75]

The Sabian APX line is based on the vintage Paiste 2002 line.

All the above suggestions from JohnnyB are great, Bonham's preference aside. If you want Z's, buy Z's.

[gtone]

I noticed that when I play the kit in our rehearsal room, the drums and cymbals (70's Zildjian A 19" medium ride and 14' thin crash, UFIP hats) sound one way, but when anyone else plays them, they project quite a different tone on the other side of the kit. Some of this tonal difference might be accounted for by different playing styles or through the room acoustics, but the fundamental tone seems to have a a distinctly different flavor. This "projected" tone seems to be much closer to that picked up by the mikes, btw.

Point being here that if you're going to perform live or record with your kit, you might want to have some other "ears" listen to the projected tone of cymbals and drums you're auditioning in addition to what you're hearing as you're playing.

[specialk]

Not a hijack. I just can't think of drums without thinking of Chicago's I'm A Man:

Also, Terry Kath slays!

[JohnnyB]

Not a hijack. I just can't think of drums without thinking of Chicago's I'm A Man:

Also, Terry Kath slays!

In the midst of my fervor for Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa during that time, Chicago's Danny Seraphine was one of my favorite rock drummers (along with Bobby Colomby of BS&T). Buddy Rich also spoke highly of them, and he wasn't easily impressed.

Along with some great solos, the late Terry Kath also helped get Pignose Amps off the ground.

[Siaip Ciuvas]

I never used to care what Bonham used for cymbals (tought Zildjian), but when I started to get interested in drums, and learned differences between Zildjian and Paiste sounds, very first time I have put Zep on and spotted this special Paiste "pot cover" sound :lol:

Some like it, some not. I am with Paiste innovation 16" thin crash now, but will be moving to duo of Zildjians A Series Fast Crash 16" and A Series 17" Crash. I have K series ride already. LOVE IT!

However I have learned in the drum store, that same model of Paiste will sound pretty much the same, but Zildjians... You have to really handpick on out of few, they all have slight differences, even with the same model number on it.

Good luck!