Apple users - music projects question

[tommy p]

I'm about to buy my first Mac and wondering if I should upgrade the hard drive.  It comes with a 1Tb and I think after I move everything I need to and finish ripping my CD's I'll have about 250-300Gb left.  I want to start recording my own music using Garage Band and/or Logic and wonder how much space music projects need?  I know it would vary based on number of tracks used, track length, etc. but any kind of general idea would help.

[alantig]

Most of my music projects (ProTools and Logic) have fit on a DVD.  Not sure I've ever gone to even a dual-layer.

But I'd seriously consider getting an external drive - it allows you to move projects off the main hard drive when you're done with them, or even putting them aside for a bit.  And I'd consider that for your music collection as well if it's going to be a significant size.  The more free space you have, the better.  Plus you can do backups to the external drive - always good before a big upgrade.

[gorch]

I'd go for a cheap cloud drive for the music and save the hardrive space for the music projects. An external harddrive is essential for backup reaons. Could be in the cloud as well. Make your stuff online available to any device flying around.

[alantig]

Good point on the cloud - I never think about that because of data limits.  I used to have Comcast and always wondered if I was getting close to hitting that.  But as long as you have a solid connection (and a solid cloud provider), the cloud is a good option.

[tommy p]

16 hours ago, alantig said:

Most of my music projects (ProTools and Logic) have fit on a DVD.  Not sure I've ever gone to even a dual-layer.

But I'd seriously consider getting an external drive - it allows you to move projects off the main hard drive when you're done with them, or even putting them aside for a bit.  And I'd consider that for your music collection as well if it's going to be a significant size.  The more free space you have, the better.  Plus you can do backups to the external drive - always good before a big upgrade.

 

2 hours ago, gorch said:

I'd go for a cheap cloud drive for the music and save the hardrive space for the music projects. An external harddrive is essential for backup reaons. Could be in the cloud as well. Make your stuff online available to any device flying around.

You're both right, of course.  I have a 500Gb external drive for backups now and could continue to use it but I plan to get a larger one when I get the new computer.  And Gorch, I checked iCloud storage.  I can get 200Gb for $2.99 a month or 1Tb for $9.99 a month so those are good options too.

[mathman]

Laptop or Desktop?  New Mac or used?

My advice.  Get the biggest SSD you can afford.  Honestly, a 256gb is plenty but 480 gb is better.  Put your music library on a USB external drive.  Store all sound sets, photos, etc on an external drive.    I replaced the 1tb drive in my mac mini with two 480 SSD drives and I would never go back.

The speed and performance of an SSD makes a world of difference.  Storing songs on an external drive works great.  If you are getting a laptop you can keep a small iTunes library on the SSD and move some songs onto the laptop for times when you don't want to carry the external drive.  If you are getting a desktop just keep the external drive plugged in at all times.   You can buy 4TB external for $100.  Last week I bought a bus powered USB 4tb at Sam's club for $98.  perfect for a laptop.

You can switch libraries for iTunes with ease.

My logic projects are anywhere for 200mb up to over a GB.  But you can move them to the external after you are finished.  Logic also works fine running off an external drive in most cases.

 

Also, you can use the backup time machine drive for storage of other files if you want.  

I just buy a new drive every 2 or 3 years.  Copy the files,  music and photo libraries to the new one and store the old for a second backup.    Start a new version of Time machine with the new drive.

[gorch]

35 minutes ago, tommy p said:

You're both right, of course.  I have a 500Gb external drive for backups now and could continue to use it but I plan to get a larger one when I get the new computer.  And Gorch, I checked iCloud storage.  I can get 200Gb for $2.99 a month or 1Tb for $9.99 a month so those are good options too.

Keep in mind that cloud storages have automatic backup. You'll never loose a single bit if not deleted by yourself. The MS Clouddrive is not bad either. If that's an option. MS is actively developing the apps. It also integrates with MS Office, even on iOS. I'm having a 1TB storage with my line provider that came for free with the contracts, accessible via webdav.

For about 17 years now I'm self operating a dedicated server in the web. Used to be a virtual server in the beginning. I trust this more than my desktop notebook. However, that's for techies. But could be an option when it is a serviced server. It needs only a few services like webdav, mail etc. The idea would be to safe yourself from data sniffery by one of the majors and possibly officials. A private Amazon S3 could be an option too. Once setup, it works for ages.

Personally, I have split my stuff. Audio is stored with Amazon. It has a wider range than iTunes. Pics are private content and stored to the 1TB storage from line provider. Storage managed in Germany under German privacy rights. Documents and specials stored on the dedicated server, accessible only via self written web based desktop capable of mail and storage management. Then there is the notebook and partially an external harddrive.

[polara]

+1 on the overall thrust here. For what it's worth, I've made two commerial CDs on my Mac, from art to tracking to mixing, and my 1TB SS drive is fine for that. I also have a 1TB external drive for archives, and use CrashPlan to do a backup in case of flood, fire, stupidity. This Mac is four yars old but maxing out the RAM and the drive mean it functions fine for everything I need.

[tommy p]

28 minutes ago, mathman said:

Laptop or Desktop?  New Mac or used?

My advice.  Get the biggest SSD you can afford.  Honestly, a 256gb is plenty but 480 gb is better.  Put your music library on a USB external drive.  Store all sound sets, photos, etc on an external drive.    I replaced the 1tb drive in my mac mini with two 480 SSD drives and I would never go back.

The speed and performance of an SSD makes a world of difference.  Storing songs on an external drive works great.  If you are getting a laptop you can keep a small iTunes library on the SSD and move some songs onto the laptop for times when you don't want to carry the external drive.  If you are getting a desktop just keep the external drive plugged in at all times.   You can buy 4TB external for $100.  Last week I bought a bus powered USB 4tb at Sam's club for $98.  perfect for a laptop.

You can switch libraries for iTunes with ease.

My logic projects are anywhere for 200mb up to over a GB.  But you can move them to the external after you are finished.  Logic also works fine running off an external drive in most cases.

 

Also, you can use the backup time machine drive for storage of other files if you want.  

I just buy a new drive every 2 or 3 years.  Copy the files,  music and photo libraries to the new one and store the old for a second backup.    Start a new version of Time machine with the new drive.

Thanks for your input!

I'm planning on a desktop now and getting an iPad at some point.  Both new.

The only issue I have with the hard drive upgrade is cost.  The desktop comes with a 1Tb SATA HD, but to go to a 512Gb SS HD is an extra $400.  I was already planning to upgrade the memory from 8Gb to 16 which is $200 and if I upgrade the processor that's another $200 also.  The $1499 base price just shot up $2299 which is way beyond what I wanted to pay.  I wanted to keep it at $1600 or less and I'm at $1700 or $1900 already.  But I have to ask: how much faster is it really?

Totally with you on the external hard drive though.

[polara]

Get a big-ass SSD at Fry's and screw it in yourself. Way cheaper and very easy to do.

[mathman]

Everyone has their ideas about cloud storage.  I use dropbox to move files around between computers and to share with others.  But I don't want to store all my files on someone else's computer so I don't use cloud storage.

Also, If you are involved with education or have a student in the household you can buy all of Apple's pro apps for $199.00

http://www.apple.com/us-hed/shop/product/BMGE2Z/A/pro-apps-bundle-for-education

[mathman]

New iMac's are  a bit harder to install SSD drives into.    There is NO comparison between an SSD and the standard drives.  Boot times in the teens of seconds.  Applications open instantly.  I put one in my i7 2012 version mac mini after the warranty expired and it was like getting a new computer.

[tommy p]

34 minutes ago, polara said:

Get a big-ass SSD at Fry's and screw it in yourself. Way cheaper and very easy to do.

East coaster here - no Fry's, but I get your drift.

26 minutes ago, mathman said:

New iMac's are  a bit harder to install SSD drives into.    There is NO comparison between an SSD and the standard drives.  Boot times in the teens of seconds.  Applications open instantly.  I put one in my i7 2012 version mac mini after the warranty expired and it was like getting a new computer.

The correct answer to "how much difference does it make?" was "not $400 worth for half the size."  Stop making it sound like a good idea!

[mathman]

So,  the 21.5 iMac with retina or without?

The problem with the 2015 iMacs is the memory is no longer upgradable.  So you really have to upgrade the memory when you buy.

Have you considered a Refurb unit from Apple?

[tommy p]

2 minutes ago, mathman said:

So,  the 21.5 iMac with retina or without?

The problem with the 2015 iMacs is the memory is no longer upgradable.  So you really have to upgrade the memory when you buy.

Have you considered a Refurb unit from Apple?

21.5 with retina, memory upgrade is definite.  I don't really want to get a refurb.

[mathman]

25 minutes ago, tommy p said:

East coaster here - no Fry's, but I get your drift.

The correct answer to "how much difference does it make?" was "not $400 worth for half the size."  Stop making it sound like a good idea!

You could consider the Fusion drive.  They only have a small SSD as part of the drive but it can make the boot times and application start times quicker.

[tommy p]

1 minute ago, mathman said:

You could consider the Fusion drive.  They only have a small SSD as part of the drive but it can make the boot times and application start times quicker.

I am considering that - that's only a $100 upgrade.

[gorch]

1 hour ago, tommy p said:

But I have to ask: how much faster is it really?

It's not the CPU and memory that's making it faster. The SSD is key nowadays. It doesn't make sense to buy a many upgrades. Spending more on the initial system is cheaper. It doesn't need to have the high end CPU though. Although, should have sufficient memory right from the beginning, not as much as possible. The SSD will compensate on the RAM without user notice.

[mathman]

21 minutes ago, tommy p said:

21.5 with retina, memory upgrade is definite.  I don't really want to get a refurb.

Are you going to do anything with video, or graphics, such as photoshop?

Are you going to be using virtual instruments like Sampletank or Kontact a lot?  

If the answer to these are both no then the SSD may be a better upgrade overall.  I have a hackintosh laptop that is basically the 2012 macbook pro.  i5 with 8 gigs of ram and and 480 gb SSD.  I run logic and final cut pro and photoshop on it with ease.  My simple projects in Final Cut or 14 Megapixel photo files in photoshop all work well on this laptop.  Macs are fairly efficient with memory now, and the SSD means the data swaps are mostly unnoticeable  for me.  I am tempted to say the SSD is a better upgrade than the memory.  Unless you do plan to use a lot of virtual instruments rather than recording voice, guitars and other instruments.  I have some virtual instruments I use but usually only one or two in a project.   

[tommy p]

51 minutes ago, mathman said:

Are you going to do anything with video, or graphics, such as photoshop?

Are you going to be using virtual instruments like Sampletank or Kontact a lot?  

If the answer to these are both no then the SSD may be a better upgrade overall.  I have a hackintosh laptop that is basically the 2012 macbook pro.  i5 with 8 gigs of ram and and 480 gb SSD.  I run logic and final cut pro and photoshop on it with ease.  My simple projects in Final Cut or 14 Megapixel photo files in photoshop all work well on this laptop.  Macs are fairly efficient with memory now, and the SSD means the data swaps are mostly unnoticeable  for me.  I am tempted to say the SSD is a better upgrade than the memory.  Unless you do plan to use a lot of virtual instruments rather than recording voice, guitars and other instruments.  I have some virtual instruments I use but usually only one or two in a project.   

I hope to delve into video and graphics more, but my experience in the past is minimal.  Pretty much the occasional band flyer is about it.

As far as how I'll be recording, I have no idea!  This will be my first try.  I imagine there will be some virtual instruments and some real until I get a feel for it and what works for me.

[alantig]

Virtual instruments are very seductive.  I really didn't think I'd use them because I had a drum module, a synth and a synth module I was very happy with.  And I was wrong.  I think I have about five drum modules (counting a couple Abbey Road sets separately), a couple amp sim packages, and quite a few keyboards.  I will say that the virtual instruments gave me the best B3 sounds I've gotten yet.

[scottcald]

Personally, I'd get a large fast external drive and put your iTunes library and music projects on it.  Then the instrument and sample libraries and stuff that want to live on the internal can do that.  You can point Logic elsewhere, but I find I have to re-point it every so often.   If you want to get really fancy, get both an external SSD and the large drive.  Run current project on the SSD and then move to the large drive when done.  

[mathman]

Logic Pro has some really great built in virtual instruments.  The amp sims are good,  the drummer and other synths are top quality.  It also now includes what was Camel Audio's Alchemy which is highly regarded.   

You have to decide how much to spend.

This computer will last you for 6 to 10 years if you wish it too.   I still have every mac I've ever bought and they all still work. I bought my first in 2003.  If you spread the cost of the SSD over 5 years you are only talking an extra 75 bucks a year or so.

It's easy to spend other peoples' money when giving advice.  ;-)

[alantig]

I didn't even think about Logic's virtual instruments - I'm still learning my way around Logic (I'm faster in ProTools).  Logic 10.3 apparently has fixed some bugs in Alchemy.

Hadn't thought about this until mathman's post - Garage Band has a feature called Magic Band (I think).  You can specify some instrumentation and musical style and it will generate a track for you.  Great practice tool.  It also has some free and for-purchase lessons you can download.  I grabbed the Alex Lifeson lessons, and man - I learned he's much better than me!

[mathman]

GarageBand is an amazing DAW.  I've been using it since it came out.  I started with Amiga trackers and then protools free.  Protools didn't port the free version to OS X when it came out. But apple came out with GarageBand and I started using that. I finally switched to logic about 4 years ago.  The magic garage feature is a lot of fun.

[mrjamiam]

I started thinking about this a bit over a year ago, got only so far, and stopped.  I bought a used, few-year-old Mac Pro for processing power, connectivity and ease of storage additions/changes.  And I liked that it, or the Mini, decouples the processor from the monitor; one thing fewer to go wrong and affect longevity.  My research at the time indicated that processing power was needed for virtual instruments and effects, but not so much for straight recording.  The SSD was to be desired, particularly if your projects exceed your RAM (long tracks, lots of tracks, etc.) and swapping might take place, since variable delays are very unmusical.  Anything you could archive (music/video library, documents, your tax files, etc.) would be fine on a spinning drive, even an external one.  I got Garage Band set up, my interface integrated and... life happened.  It's been patiently waiting for me to come back to it and reveal my lack of creativity ever since.

Look around on the web, and there are lots of sources of information about how to achieve different goals.  You can make your own "Fusion" drive, for instance, although Apple is aware and they've been making it more difficult for consumers to upgrade or change storage and RAM components for a few years.  That's why I went with an older model for this application.  For other things, I'm on my second Mini and second laptop over the last dozen years or so.  I have been satisfied with reliability.

One online reference I looked at was this one:  https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/best-computer-for-recording-music/ .  Lots of opinions, and it's updated regularly.  There is plenty of other stuff too, once you start searching on DAW, DAW workstation, home recording computer, or whatever.  Good luck and enjoy the journey!  I hope to join you soon.  There's a learning curve that needs to be climbed.