Building a PA. Need recommendations

[HamerDave]

I'm currently playing in a 6 piece Blues/Classic rock group. The lineup is drums, bass, blues harp, and two guitars with a lead singer. The bass, harp and one guitar double up on vocals as well. We've been using an old suitcase style powered mixer with a pair of 15" passive mains for FoH and a scattering of 12" wedges for monitors. We've gotten to the point where I'm able to commit to some better gear. Since we're all "vintage" musicians we'd like to lighten the load a bit and improve the sound. 15" speakers with a horn and a passive crossover are brutal on vocals and guitars. I've been looking at Turbosound IP series arrays to replace all the speakers and, since they're powered, we just need a mixer to go with. I'm liking the look of the Behringer X-air. It's tiny, light and, the real selling point, is it has a ton of onboard processing and effects so we wouldnt need anything else in the rack. Is anyone using either of these or, please Lord, both? Any other suggestions for products to look at are appreciated as well.  Thanks all!  

[scottcald]

I have a Behringer X Air.  For the size, it's hard to beat.  You can have each person have a tablet to control their own mix.  The couple of issues I've seen are the built in wifi is not great in terms of speed and security protocol.  Set your tablet for like 30 minutes before it sleeps.  It's sometimes slow re-connecting after sleep.  Otherwise, I've liked it.  For smaller monitors, look at the QSC K8.2 (the new ones). 8" speaker, lots of wattage, good sound.  I have the original K8s, but they aren't shaped to use as a monitor.  Haven't tried the Turbosounds, but they look good and Turbosound has a concert sound history.   I've used the similar Bose system before all the other companies came out with them, and I liked those.   Maybe I'll have to go check out the Turbosounds.  

[HoboMan]

I also have the Berhinger X18. I upgraded from an analog mixer earlier this  year. At first I was hesitant to go digital because of the learning curve but I'm so glad that I did.
It's an amazing mixer and actually quite easy to use once you get used to it. 

I've also heard about connectivity issues with the built-in wifi but I bought and external dual band router for $35 that I use. 
I run sound from the stage when I'm playing guitar with a band but I also have my own sound company and run sound for other bands. I always use my laptop to get the initial mix going and then use my tablet to walk around the room for fine tuning. My laptop is always there and I have a 50' network cable just in case I ever have router issues.

I also recently upgraded from passive to powered speakers. I've been using two Carvin 18" powered subs but recently purchased some EVZLZ-12P powered mains and monitors. These are very affordable and sound really good. You can get factory refurbished directly EV from Reverb.com for $289 each. I use two for mains (on top of my Carvin subs) and two for monitors. I also have a couple of carvin PM12As for monitors (powered 12" speakers).

I ran sound for a band last weekend with this rig. It was an outdoor gig under a pavilion at a golf course. Sounded awesome.

My subs weigh less than 70lbs and the EV mains weigh 34lbs. I was able to set up the entire rig by myself (including LED lighting) in 90 minutes. That was for a 5 piece band with two guitars, keyboards and 4 singers. 
The X18 completely eliminates the need for a snake which is a real luxury. Took me one hour to tear down and load everything into my trailer.
The rig sets up fast and all of it fits into my 4'x6' trailer with room to spare. Handles any club that my bands play and also smaller outdoor gigs.

I've never heard the turbosounds but I hear good things about them. One of the bands I run sound for supplies their own PA. They use RCF speakers (1 sub and 2 12" mains) and they sound really good. 

I was on a budget when I bought my stuff. If I do upgrade later I would take scottwald's suggestion of getting some smaller monitors. A higher end 10" or 8" monitor would be lighter and sound better than a lower end 12" monitor. I've been looking at the Yamaha DSR10s but don't have the money right now. Maybe next year after I make some money with my current system. I also wouldn't mind upgrading my subs. The Carvins are good and get the job done but I think there's definitely better if you can afford to spend more.

[geoff_hartwell]

I have a lot of experience with the Mackie ipad based mixers and the Behringer x series, and I'm a big fan of the newer generation of QSC k series.

especially if you don't have a full time sound guy, regardless of the mixer you go with, you'll need to spend some time navigating the various menus, main and aux mixes, fx and routing. Especially that most of the new mixers don't have a main fader or kill switch for bad sounds or settings- Seriously, there was a moment in a live situation where a keyboard player who was running the main mixer goofed on something and there was nearly a minute of ear splitting feedback, felt like an eternity.

the lack of a snake is a great plus, and I recommend using an apple airport express as a router- they're really easy to set up for security and are about fifty bucks used. Not sure where Behringer is at with iPhone apps for aux mixes, but with the Mackie I always prefer using my iPhone rather than an ipad, but up to the user.

i would definitely check out the QSC touchmix- it's *really* well designed not-so-secretly by Greg mackie and it has a lot of feature that the mackies and behringers lack. For instance it has a touch screen built in that doesn't rely on an ipad (unlike all the mackies and behringers, which won't work without them, or if your ipad runs out of juice...), and it's super easy to get FULL 16 track multitrack files so you can easily mix any of your live tracks into any DAW after the gig. Search touch mix on YouTube and check it out.

For powered speakers- I actually sold a pair of QSC K12s because I had both the K10s and K12s, and the 10s are lighter and more compact and still sound awesome and are plenty loud enough, even for outdoors, and love a sub or two. And btw Scott, on the original K8s, you can buy a bolt and rubber stopper at any hardware store to enable use as a monitor (check out the YouTube video). The K8s and K10s are Relatively easy to find and reasonable in price, but hold value. I actually prefer to use JBL eon10 G2's as monitors, they rule- very rugged and reliable, and only about 200-250, I have 5.

[scottcald]

Geoff, thanks for the tip about the K8s.  Have you done this before and is it stable?  I wouldn't want it falling back onto the connectors if using it.  I also have some powered Carvin monitors.  I've had good experience and they're a good price point.

The Behringer doesn't have an iPhone app but a 3rd party does.  I didn't realize the QSC mixer allowed direct recording to USB.  That's really cool.  One of the best things with the Behringer is how tiny it is and it's basically a snake box.  I love that.  I'm always looking how to have less space/weight/stuff to haul.  

 

[geoff_hartwell]

Right on Man!

Yes I have. Did you really not look on YouTube? The video I was referring to is called "QSC K8 Floor Monitor".

Its just a number 10 metric bolt (same as the fly points) and a rubber stopper. If you're doing a variety of gigs this will be useful...and between the original 8s and the 8.2s, I go with the original 8s all day long. Reliable and tough. The 8.2s have extra circuitry (which can fail) for the menus (which are easy to set wrong) and extra buttons (which are begging to be messed with). Between the two, original all the way.

The few pieces of Hartwellian wisdom I would offer is to 1) buy extras- put two in each Velcro bag pocket- they're cheap, and 2) put a little Gaff tape around the shaft of the bolt (yes on the threads, Gaff tape not Duct tape so there's no excess goo) where it screws in the first time you measure it to be stable so that you or someone else doesn't absent-mindedly crank it too far in and have it wobbly or falling over all night- I like easily repeatable results, and 3) since your aux outs are usually 1/4 inch, use a cable (I prefer Planet Waves) with one angle end and use the angled end on the speaker input- the output ends at the board don't usually get messed with, and if the speaker falls, is kicked, or gets knocked over, you're good- can be easily righted and the cable and jack are fine.

[scottcald]

5 hours ago, geoff_hartwell said:

Right on Man!

Yes I have. Did you really not look on YouTube? The video I was referring to is called "QSC K8 Floor Monitor".

Its just a number 10 metric bolt (same as the fly points) and a rubber stopper. If you're doing a variety of gigs this will be useful...and between the original 8s and the 8.2s, I go with the original 8s all day long. Reliable and tough. The 8.2s have extra circuitry (which can fail) for the menus (which are easy to set wrong) and extra buttons (which are begging to be messed with). Between the two, original all the way.

The few pieces of Hartwellian wisdom I would offer is to 1) buy extras- put two in each Velcro bag pocket- they're cheap, and 2) put a little Gaff tape around the shaft of the bolt (yes on the threads, Gaff tape not Duct tape so there's no excess goo) where it screws in the first time you measure it to be stable so that you or someone else doesn't absent-mindedly crank it too far in and have it wobbly or falling over all night- I like easily repeatable results, and 3) since your aux outs are usually 1/4 inch, use a cable (I prefer Planet Waves) with one angle end and use the angled end on the speaker input- the output ends at the board don't usually get messed with, and if the speaker falls, is kicked, or gets knocked over, you're good- can be easily righted and the cable and jack are fine.

I did look at a YouTube video, thanks, just wanted to know if it was stable in actual gig usage.  Ah, good point about using a 1/4" input.  Hadn't thought about it since I usually use the XLR.   Thanks, Geoff!

[The Shark]

My number one rule with regard to P.A. is never buy anything new.  Everything you decide to buy can be found used at a significant savings.  And it's so much easier to find what you need these days.  We buy cables and mics new.  That's it.

[HAMERMAN]

> 2) put a little Gaff tape around the shaft of the bolt (yes on the threads, Gaff tape not Duct tape so there's no excess goo) where it screws in the first time you measure it to be >stable so that you or someone else doesn't absent-mindedly crank it too far in and have it wobbly or falling over all night- I like easily repeatable results, and

If space permits you could also put two nuts on the shaft of the bolt with one tightened against the other to make a "jam nut".

 

 

[HoboMan]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:02 AM, The Shark said:

My number one rule with regard to P.A. is never buy anything new.  Everything you decide to buy can be found used at a significant savings.  And it's so much easier to find what you need these days.  We buy cables and mics new.  That's it.

 

I also prefer to buy my cables new but I always buy used mics. Get great deals and good mics last a long time;

[HamerDave]

Took the plunge. Found a pair of used Turbosound IP 1000s and bought an XR16. Used both last night for the first time. Wow.  While I'd never recommend using a system like this for the first time ever in front of a live audience, we managed to pull it off and it sounded great. Setup was a snap. No monitors or associated cabling, I put the towers behind the band so we were getting the FoH mix. One dinky powered monitor on a stand for the drummer. 4 vocal mikes, two guitars, harp and bass all running in the mix. Nice and clear, not overpowering. When I was singing it sounded like my voice was coming out of the mic. Amazing. 

 

[scottcald]

3 hours ago, HamerDave said:

Took the plunge. Found a pair of used Turbosound IP 1000s and bought an XR16. Used both last night for the first time. Wow.  While I'd never recommend using a system like this for the first time ever in front of a live audience, we managed to pull it off and it sounded great. Setup was a snap. No monitors or associated cabling, I put the towers behind the band so we were getting the FoH mix. One dinky powered monitor on a stand for the drummer. 4 vocal mikes, two guitars, harp and bass all running in the mix. Nice and clear, not overpowering. When I was singing it sounded like my voice was coming out of the mic. Amazing. 

 

Nice, HamerDave.  So, sounds like no issues overcoming amps and drums.  

[HamerDave]

3 hours ago, scottcald said:

Nice, HamerDave.  So, sounds like no issues overcoming amps and drums.  

None at all. I'm blown away with the clarity and power of these things. I'd played at an outdoor party a couple weeks ago. They were using a couple of the Bose tower setups. Sounded amazing. My TurboSounds are not quite to the level of the Bose. However I got both towers for about 75% of the cost of one Bose unit. The Bose IS better. But I don't think it's 4X better. I'd recommend mics on the guitars at a minimum. I didn't mic up the drums. The harp was a line in from his amp. Same with the bass. Since we were hearing the FoH mix on stage keeping the bands volume under control was easy. The only thing I did differently than I normally do was to run it as a stereo mix. I panned my guitar more to the other side of the stage, and the other guitar over to my side. First time I've ever heard him during a gig. He's pretty good 😊. He loved it too since he's always after me to turn up. I'd hesitate to play a large out door show but even then, they're  spec'd to produce 122db so.. maybe?

[The Shark]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:44 PM, HoboMan said:

 

I also prefer to buy my cables new but I always buy used mics. Get great deals and good mics last a long time;

Coodies!!!!

[scottcald]

51 minutes ago, HamerDave said:

None at all. I'm blown away with the clarity and power of these things. I'd played at an outdoor party a couple weeks ago. They were using a couple of the Bose tower setups. Sounded amazing. My TurboSounds are not quite to the level of the Bose. However I got both towers for about 75% of the cost of one Bose unit. The Bose IS better. But I don't think it's 4X better. I'd recommend mics on the guitars at a minimum. I didn't mic up the drums. The harp was a line in from his amp. Same with the bass. Since we were hearing the FoH mix on stage keeping the bands volume under control was easy. The only thing I did differently than I normally do was to run it as a stereo mix. I panned my guitar more to the other side of the stage, and the other guitar over to my side. First time I've ever heard him during a gig. He's pretty good 😊. He loved it too since he's always after me to turn up. I'd hesitate to play a large out door show but even then, they're  spec'd to produce 122db so.. maybe?

Thanks for the details.  It is a whole different way of working - as long as everyone can get on board with keeping volume reasonable and the drummer doesn't play like he's in a 20,000 seat arena.