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My turntable sounds better than ever


JohnnyB

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Posted

Not quite two years ago, I started this thread to explain the importance of controlling resonances and extraneous vibration to extract the full performance from a vinyl LP. Done right it will equal or exceed the dynamics of a CD and smoke it on subtlety, timbre differentiation, expressiveness, and nuance of the musical performance.

To illustrate, I showed a picture of my 1981-design turntable (before they designed for vibration control) with all the tweaks I'd added:

TTwithIkeaplatform-3.jpg

A couple weeks ago, I changed one thing. Can you spot the difference?

TTwithnewplatform-3.jpg

The elements and sequence are the same, the only difference is a much more massive butcher block cutting board than before. The new one is 2.6 times the volume of the old one and at least triple the weight, or mass.

Why the change? Well, as Quasimdo might say, "I had a hunch." I'd read user reports of Technics owners who'd gotten bigger cutting boards, or who had bought two of the type I'd had before (a cheap Ikea product) and epoxied them together for a noticeable improvement. So... swinging for the fences, I ordered up a 15" x 20" x 3.5", 30 lb. rock maple end grain butcher block cutting board from Overstock.com. It was $89 and would have been closer to $200 anywhere else.

Changing nothing else, I replaced the Ikea with this Michigan Maple monstrosity. I put on an audiophile repressing of the landmark John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman album and dropped the needle on track 1.

Holy $#!+!!!

Everything I ever liked about my playback rig was there times three, and anything I didn't like about it--slight midrange glare, slightly muddied inner detail, thin bass--was gone, Gone, GONE! The organic aspects of human voice and acoustic sax in the hands of a master completely overtook the artifice of electronic playback. Johnny and John were in the room.

For a sanity check, I called in my wife, an accomplished singer and completely results-oriented and asked if she heard anything new (without telling her what I'd changed). I offered to put on a record she was more familiar with but she said, "Don't bother, I can tell you right now. I can hear the singer move his head as he sings, and he sounds more like he's right there singing instead of playing off a record." Next I put on one of Rod Stewart's Great American Songbook LPs (which she loves) just to enjoy it and we both marveled at how much more fleshed out the music was, how much easier you could hear background vocals, Rod's vocalizations, the shimmer of the strings, the orchestral flourishes, the pluck and bloom of the acoustic bass, the shimmer of cymbals ... you name it, it was better.

Two things stood out regarding tonal balance: 1) the midrange was very natural and linear with no undue emphasis or "glare," and 2) the bass was easier to hear but tighter, more articulate, and more fully formed. I have a lot of jazz records which means I have a lot of recorded acoustic upright bass. With the new cutting board ... er ... platform, I could listen to just the difference wrought in acoustic bass for days on end, so profound is the difference.

The reason I'm sharing this is that if you are listening to a 1980's-era Technics, Denon, JVC, Hitachi, etc. direct drive turntable, or really, just about any turntable from that era, remove the stock feet (if they screw in), set the threaded sockets on a set of these (ball side up, resting in the threaded sockets), and set the whole thing on the most substantial end grain butcher block maple cutting board you can afford. I got this one. Pay attention to the dimensions to make sure your turntable will fit on it.

This also goes if you have a newer turntable design without a lot of built-in vibration isolation. In other words, if you turntable doesn't look like this ...

ClearaudioInnovationWood-1.jpg

...you'll probably hear an improvement with the Vibrapod Cones sitting on a big-ass butcher block cutting board.

Highly, highly recommended.

22 answers to this question

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Posted

From reading Hifi journals decades ago I remember that high end enthusiasts used to put the equipment on concrete blocks. That explains a lot I think.

My good old 1980 DUAL CS 626 has a vibration isolation. The whole system is swimming within the cabinet.

However, pics are not mine.

dual-cs-626-foto-bild-47340097.jpg

The screws need to be turned up to put the player in rest mode for transport.

screw.jpg

Posted

Johnny, I wish I had your (or your wife's) hearing. It's amazing what you can hear that my poor noise-damaged ears can't.

Posted

From reading Hifi journals decades ago I remember that high end enthusiasts used to put the equipment on concrete blocks. That explains a lot I think.

Yes, it's a combination of mass loading, greater platform stability, isolation, and also the ability to absorb the vibrations and not pass them along. For that part of it, the density of the material makes a difference. Most reports I've read of using a granite slab results in more midrange glare. Too soft an isolation platform rounds off the treble too much. Too hard and it reflects the vibrations back into the turntable. Maple and similarly dense hardwoods such as beech or birch seem to work the best. I suspect the end grain butcher block cutting board construction also contributes. The end grain surface helps absorb vibration into the block. The G&L Saddle-Lock bridge makes use of this end-grain principle and the difference is noticeable. The butcher block construction also breaks up potential resonances.

My good old 1980 DUAL CS 626 has a vibration isolation. The whole system is swimming within the cabinet.

There are three primary approaches to turntable construction--suspended, mass-loaded, and constrained layering. A suspended turntable such as yours uses metal springs or elastomer elements to isolate the drive and tonearm mechanisms from the base and in-room vibration. Suspended designs include yours, products from JA Michell, Linn, SME, the old AR turntable, and the traditional belt-drive Thorens line (but not always today). The ones built to close tolerances require adjustments to the spring tension if you add a record weight or add a particularly heavy cartridge and tonearm counterweight.

However, three metal springs aren't likely to drain all vibration out of the turntable nor isolate it from all vibration and feedback in the room. Look at SME's top line turntable:

Model30-2big.jpg

It has dramatic vibration control throughout its design. It has two plinths. The motor is mounted to the lower one and the platter, spindle, and tonearm are mounted to the top one. The speed controller is free standing. Most dramatic is its overall suspension and isolation scheme: Look at those towers in the four corners. The top plinth is suspended by an array of elastomer strings. The core of these towers extends down through tubes, through the lower plinth, to the surface it sits on. I've heard this turntable and the dynamic range is astounding. My point is, even though you have a suspended turntable, you may benefit from sitting it on Vibrapod cones sitting on a thick butcher block.

Your setup would definitely improve with the right aftermarket turntable mat.

Johnny, I wish I had your (or your wife's) hearing. It's amazing what you can hear that my poor noise-damaged ears can't.

My wife has tinnitus. Still, she can zero in on the end result of musical (especially vocal) performances in a heartbeat. And anyway, I don't really listen all that hard when I make changes. Rather, I pay attention to my emotional center to see how the music affects me compared to how it affected me before. Two weeks and a wide variety of records later, I can confidently say that the change has made the music more involving and strengthens the artist/listener connection. The biggest gain is that all my regular records sound more like my audiophile reissues. It gave me back my record collection.

That Coltrane/Hartman is a great album!

Yes, one of my favorites. I have the Speakers Corner reissue. Do you have an Impulse original? I bought it mail order along with Getz/Gilberto, Sinatra at the Sands, and Balalika Favorites, all of which, it turned out, were recorded in 1962. That was a great year for well-done stereo recordings.

Posted

I have my turntable resting on this board. It's a piece of what I think is masonite, or similar. It's not solid wood unfortunately. Its the bottom plate from an 80's camera repro stand. It's pretty heavy and it fits like it's cut to size.

P1010516.jpg

The feet from the turntable are resting on cushions I made from a pretty hard foam fabric I found. For isolation.

P1010515.jpg

The aluminium spider stereo rack is resting on spike feet.

P1010514.jpg

P1010517.jpg

This set up sounds awesome. But those Vibrapods you are talking about for the turntable might improve the sound even more than my cushions, what do you think? How much are four of those Vibrapods in a US store?

What have you done to your tone arm? It looks like it's in a plaster caster :lol:

Posted

This set up sounds awesome. But those Vibrapods you are talking about for the turntable might improve the sound even more than my cushions, what do you think? How much are four of those Vibrapods in a US store?

What I like is a combination of the Vibrapod Cones and the original Vibrapod Isolators. There are several versions of the Isolators, as they are optimized to different weight ranges. I have my turntable sitting on Vibrapod Cones which are then sitting on Vibrapod Isolators. They're made to fit together, but either one is pretty effective by itself. The Cones are $8 each and the Isolators are $4 each.

VIBRACONE_000.jpgVBK3IP_HAND.jpgVBK3IP.jpg

What have you done to your tone arm? It looks like it's in a plaster caster :lol:

That's the best, cheapest tweak I've ever done. The Technics tonearm has an aluminum arm tube and is not damped at all. Many modern tonearms have foam inside to keep the arm from ringing. The Technics arm rings like a bell. Basically I tracked down turntable resonances by flicking each item with my fingernail. The two biggest culprits were the machined aluminum platter and the hollow aluminum tonearm. I got a heavy Sorbothane mat to damp the platter and wrapped the arm with PFTE (Teflon) pipe thread sealer. I suspect that tweak cost me fifteen cents at most.

5324aeea-c5a0-4a28-91c7-a8f07c00aace_300.jpg

Edited to add: You have a most impressive equipment rack and isolation scheme. What are your electronics and speakers?

Posted

This set up sounds awesome. But those Vibrapods you are talking about for the turntable might improve the sound even more than my cushions, what do you think? How much are four of those Vibrapods in a US store?

Edited to add: You have a most impressive equipment rack and isolation scheme. What are your electronics and speakers?

I have a pair of SWAN M1 speakers.

http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=122

Designed in the USA, built in China. "Isodynamic ribbon design with high temperature Kapton membrane in a linear configuration with neo bar magnets. High frequency response is level and balanced far past 40 kHz. 5” Kevlar / Paper woofers.." They sound great. I wanted something that was good enough to mix with and these are great both for listening and as studio monitors.

And a SWAN sub, like this one but in silver http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/produc...d=0&pid=261

Two guys that owns an action sport store imported a whole container with SWAN speakers directly from the factory. Mostly home cinema stuff, they then sold it with only a slight profit so that they got their own stuff for free. I bought the speakers directly from them at a stellar price.

A Jungson SA-1 power amp and a Jungson 99C power amp, 80W class A, powers the speakers. Top hifi from China as well. Over built by todays standards, great quality:

http://www.jungson.com/files/reviews/ja99c_uk_review.pdf

NY Sound sells Jungson in the USA. Their mono blocks gives me GAS.

http://www.nysound.com/exec/servlet/Catego...p;category=2021

A Jungson Moon Harbor CD player. Also very good sounding. Im sure there are better ones out there, or the option of using a separate DAC (which I would like to try at some point). But really, it's hard to tell the difference when I have switched CD players. When you reach a certain quality level they pretty much sound the same to me.

http://www.nysound.com/exec/servlet/Catego...=jus-2130-01004

http://www.jungson.com/products/hifi/ja1ja99c

http://www.jungson.com/products/player/cd

We were a bunch of people that ordered together from a hifi store in Hong Kong. They filled up a container with the stuff and shipped it over for us. A weird way to do it perhaps but I would not pay top money for hi fi like this normally, so I thought it was a good way to get great stuff at a more moderate price level. I hope this rig will be with me for a loooong time.

Posted

another practical question. Where do you keep your turntable in relation to the speakers?

Posted

another practical question. Where do you keep your turntable in relation to the speakers?

Ideally it should be isolated as much as possible to minimize feedback. Some even put the turntable in another room and make feed-through in the wall to get the TT cables to the electronics on the other side. Me? I'm just askin' for it. I have my turntable about 2 feet behind and off to the side from my left speaker. The black column is my speaker; the little stuffed arctic fox marks the position of the turntable. That's how close they are to each other, and the speaker is omnidirectional.

TT-Spkrposition.jpg

That may be part of why I've gotten such profound improvements with my isolation and damping efforts.

Posted

Thought about you as I leveled my turntable tonight.

I have a problem with the plastic "behind" the stylus touching the vinyl and making noise. I can't think of any simpleton fixes other than loosening the cartridge and sticking a wedge between the "head" and the cartridge. Any advice, JB?

Posted

Thought about you as I leveled my turntable tonight.

I have a problem with the plastic "behind" the stylus touching the vinyl and making noise. I can't think of any simpleton fixes other than loosening the cartridge and sticking a wedge between the "head" and the cartridge. Any advice, JB?

What's your turntable? Is the arm height adjustable? What's your cartridge? When the back of the cartridge is scraping, it often means the tonearm pivot is too low relative to the headshell height when it is on the record. How thick is your turntable mat? Could you go with a thinner one?

Posted

another practical question. Where do you keep your turntable in relation to the speakers?

Ideally it should be isolated as much as possible to minimize feedback. Some even put the turntable in another room and make feed-through in the wall to get the TT cables to the electronics on the other side. Me? I'm just askin' for it. I have my turntable about 2 feet behind and off to the side from my left speaker. The black column is my speaker; the little stuffed arctic fox marks the position of the turntable. That's how close they are to each other, and the speaker is omnidirectional.

TT-Spkrposition.jpg

That may be part of why I've gotten such profound improvements with my isolation and damping efforts.

Now we need to see the place of Whiskey enjoyment. :lol:

That's been mentioned in another thread I think.

Posted

Thought about you as I leveled my turntable tonight.

I have a problem with the plastic "behind" the stylus touching the vinyl and making noise. I can't think of any simpleton fixes other than loosening the cartridge and sticking a wedge between the "head" and the cartridge. Any advice, JB?

What's your turntable? Is the arm height adjustable? What's your cartridge? When the back of the cartridge is scraping, it often means the tonearm pivot is too low relative to the headshell height when it is on the record. How thick is your turntable mat? Could you go with a thinner one?

http://www.ionaudio.com/products/details/ttusb

Posted

I have a problem with the plastic "behind" the stylus touching the vinyl and making noise. I can't think of any simpleton fixes other than loosening the cartridge and sticking a wedge between the "head" and the cartridge. Any advice, JB?

What's your turntable? Is the arm height adjustable? What's your cartridge? When the back of the cartridge is scraping, it often means the tonearm pivot is too low relative to the headshell height when it is on the record. How thick is your turntable mat? Could you go with a thinner one?

ionttusb_angle_lg-580x363.jpg

Given that this is a vendor-integrated product where Ion selected the cartridge for the tonearm, back-end scrape is sort of inexcusable, but that's the hand we're dealt. The standard solution would be to raise the height at the fulcrum end of the tonearm, but it doesn't look like the tonearm is adjustable that way. I downloaded the User Manual and couldn't find any evidence you could raise it. The cartridge illustrated there doesn't look like the rear could drag unless something was mounted wrong. But since the cartridge is not named or specified, the one you have may not be the one illustrated and it could be a bad match.

If you're willing to put up a little money, I recommend getting a different cartridge, a better one, and one that would be a lot easier on your records. The one on your turntable is designed to track at 3.5 go 4 grams. That indicates that it's a DJ cart and is unnecessarily high in VTF for your purposes.

I recommend you get an Audio Technica AT95E. it's only $49.95, tracks at 1.5 to 2.5g (2.0g is probably optimum), and is one of the highest rated cartridges under $100 out there. The other one in that price range I'd recommend is the Shure M97xE at only $5 more. The built-in brush stabilizer enables it to track hideously warped records, and it tracks even lighter than the Audio-Technica. With one of these cartridge the records will sound better and so will the digital files you burn from them.

If you stick with your current cartridge, giving your cartridge a wedgie is probably the best solution under the circumstances.

Posted

Thanks JB! The cartridge I have on now is a replacement. I will follow your advice and get a new cartridge, and hope my eyes/hands can deal with the install.

Posted

Thanks JB! The cartridge I have on now is a replacement. I will follow your advice and get a new cartridge, and hope my eyes/hands can deal with the install.

Well that makes sense. It didn't make sense that the original cartridge would scrape. What was the original cartridge? Maybe I can recommend a better cartridge that has the same geometry as the original (which presumably didn't scrape). What's your current cartridge, a Grado?

Posted

From reading Hifi journals decades ago I remember that high end enthusiasts used to put the equipment on concrete blocks. That explains a lot I think.

But what's hysterical, is most audio guys confuse mass verse damping, and air vibration vs direct mechanical vibration. If you want to stop something from being moved by air, mass does a great job. Like trying to yell at someone on the other side of a concrete wall. He can't hear you. But if you TAP on the wall with a screwdriver handle he can hear it. If you don't want something to be move mechanically, you want damping. You want to be able to tap on the other side, and not hear it! You want to isolate the mechanical motion like shock absorbers in a car.

Even better, is when you do both.

About thirty years ago when sub woofers first became more cost effective and drove turntables nutz, I had this discussion with a nieghbour who had ordered a 1 1/4 inch marble slab through the local high end audio store, Anderson Sound. First I pointed out he could go to a marble counter top guy and buy a piece much cheaper... besides, they always have scrap (to them).

He argued all the guys used blocks of glass and brass and marble etc etc... so we did a test. Right on top of his huge 15 inch sub we set a towel and two cinder blocks, and his heavy turntable on top of it. It was clearly better then his stand was, but he still couldn't turn it up very loud.

Next I lay two strips of 1/2 inch black neopreme foam across the sub and a piece of scrap 1/4 plywood (the turntable over hung his sub). We could turn it up much louder, much. Of course this drove him insane as I was 16 and he was in his thirties.

After this, I went to Clegg Glass and had them cut me two pieces of glass (3/8?) the size of my turntable, then to the Foam Store (yeah, that's what it was called) and had them cut me two pieces of different neoprene foam. I figured that they'd transmit vibration differently, ie inefficiently.

So I put my first piece of foam down, a piece of glass, a piece of different foam, then a piece of glass, with the turntable on top. I also put some duct seal (like a putty) on the inside of my low end Dual Turntable. Someone told me I really needed a bit more squish (there is some factor, I don't know what it is, and there was no internet), so I just cut a big hole in the center of the two pieces of foam when I had to move. I had that setup for ages, we even used it for band practice.

Posted

From reading Hifi journals decades ago I remember that high end enthusiasts used to put the equipment on concrete blocks. That explains a lot I think.

But what's hysterical, is most audio guys confuse mass verse damping, and air vibration vs direct mechanical vibration. If you want to stop something from being moved by air, mass does a great job. Like trying to yell at someone on the other side of a concrete wall. He can't hear you. But if you TAP on the wall with a screwdriver handle he can hear it. If you don't want something to be move mechanically, you want damping. You want to be able to tap on the other side, and not hear it! You want to isolate the mechanical motion like shock absorbers in a car.

Even better, is when you do both.

That's called constrained layer damping, such as exhibited by the high end turntable pictured in my original post.

I think the resurgence of vinyl playback has accelerated high end audio vendors' understanding of vibration control. The more sophisticated the turntable, the more elaborate the combination of mass and damping to keep extraneous vibrations out of the signal chain, i.e., so the cartridge picks up the LP groove undulations but less motor noise, bearing noise, various resonances, and in-room vibration.

Understanding of vibration and resonance control and constrained layer damping has come slowly in audio, but they're getting much better at it. I was messing around with a not-too-expensive turntable that was so well sorted out (Rega P-7, I think) that you could tap your finger on a record with the needle down, and the fingertaps were not picked up by the cartridge.

Constrained layer damping is what I attempt to do with my turntable--a big block of rigid wood, supported by silicone gel pads below and isolated from the turntable above by Vibrapod cones and isolator pucks. What prompted me to start this post is that tripling the mass of the rigid platform resulted in a marked drop in residual noise and increased resolution of dynamics and low level detail.

Posted

Thanks JB! The cartridge I have on now is a replacement. I will follow your advice and get a new cartridge, and hope my eyes/hands can deal with the install.

Well that makes sense. It didn't make sense that the original cartridge would scrape. What was the original cartridge? Maybe I can recommend a better cartridge that has the same geometry as the original (which presumably didn't scrape). What's your current cartridge, a Grado?

JB, I haven't forgotten about this, just haven't had camera/hosting all lined up to take a pic...

Posted

The drummer in our band is a fellow audio buddy. When he heard me rave about the improvements wrought by swapping in the massive cutting board, he decided to order one for his rig. His turntable is very different from mine: it's a belt-drive table with one-piece arm/headshell, MDF plinth and acrylic platter. I figured that adding the massive platform would improve the sound, but wasn't sure if it would have the same effect as on mine, since his has more evolved vibration control built into the stock turntable.

mmf-22.jpg

I needn't have worried. His cutting board arrived yesterday; he only had time to spin a couple of records before coming to band rehearsal. At rehearsal he said he could definitely tell it was different, but hadn't really sorted out what all had changed. After practice he went home and played a bunch more records. Then, this is what he emailed me about 12:30 last night:

I listened to my stereo set up more tonight. It definitely sounds much better. The bass is amazing. Hearing things I've never heard before on a record I've had for 35 years!

He hasn't even heard it at its best yet; he's still waiting for delivery of some Vibrapod Cones to go between TT and platform.

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