My feelings about vintage guitars

[Matt Mattson]

Vintage, antique, collectable, I understand. It's the "relic" market that totally eludes me.

Matt,

I wasn’t a fan of the relics until I tried several. Some were OK, some were very good, and a few were among the best guitars I have ever played. I like the look of the lightly aged versions. Here are a couple that are phenomenal guitars. The first is a Nash, the second is a Fender with a few custom features – 9 ½” radius neck and big frets.

These truly feel old and played-in, though the frets are in perfect condition and the electronics don’t phart out.. I find them more comfortable to play than brand new shiny guitars. I’ll also admit that the look appeals to me.

True -- I have no reference since I haven't spent time with one. If we all thought alike it'd be a boring world with only one guitar make and model.

[JohnnyB]

I used to scoff at relics until I played the Fender 51 Nocaster thinline relic, masterbuilt by Chris Fleming. Awesome guitar in every way I could think of. I dunno if it felt so great because of the relic treatment or if that's just the way all of the Fender Masterbuilt stuff is.

http://www.privatereserveguitars.com/Fende...1149494.guitars

That's exactly what I heard from a working pro and dealer who used to be the manager at Seattle's Guitarville, who has since started his own store in Everett, WA called Tommy's Guitars. He's been exposed to hundreds of great guitars over the years, and I still remember the emotion in his voice for the relic'd Nocaster he acquired.

[sirDaniel]

my real feelings? Listen to ma

[BCR Greg]

Since you guys are posting pics, I will too.....

[ZR]

SirD,

Cool pic of your mom, but she plays "Enter Sandman" differently than I do!

I need to get one of my mom playing my guitar.

[shredmeister]

Yeah tolerances is the whole thing. On paper new guitars are better than old.

However, why do 2 guitars made the same out of the same materials and construction sound difference?

How come there are some special guitars out there?

Not even the luthiers can tell you.

Does not have anything to due with age I think.

Personally I go for new guitars but I don't discount the vintage ones. Sometimes when the wood is old and pups are old they sound great.

[Matt Mattson]

Yeah tolerances is the whole thing. On paper new guitars are better than old.

However, why do 2 guitars made the same out of the same materials and construction sound difference?

How come there are some special guitars out there?

Not even the luthiers can tell you.

Does not have anything to due with age I think.

Personally I go for new guitars but I don't discount the vintage ones. Sometimes when the wood is old and pups are old they sound great.

I still think it comes back to the old guys of the WWII gen being so good with wood, the best luthier in the world won't help if the guys on the line aren't skilled (mass produced guitars). My dad and his buddies would take 20 foot section of irrigation pipe, knock a hole in it, put a piece of stove pipe in the bottom, a long board in the pipe, cap the ends with a hatchet hole in the ends, put that over a drum of boiling water and steam overnight and you could form that board into a pretzel (the commonly did it for frames). Same techniques they used out in the Pacific when they needed to repair a damaged wing spar. They just seemed to know how to do it by osmosis.

Bottom line for me is I have 3 335's. The first was gigged, looks old and beat, sounds absolutely unique. The second was bought as a backup since the first not only looks old and beat, it is old and beat. The third was simply a good price. I took the second and third, adjusted the saddles to the first (micrometer), then played -- similar, no cigar. Then adjusted the intonation to try to duplicate the first -- no cigar. Done a lot of other stuff -- no cigar. So the old saying of no two alike certainly true with my limited exp. of 335s with the old one far exceeding the new. Another thing -- the old guys worked with cassein glue, that's what they liked, it is possible the modern guits are made with epoxy glues that just don't sound the same (transmit vibration to the adjoining wood the same).

[BadgerDave]

I think Matt is right about the skill of the builders back in the 50s and 60s, especially in the Gibson shop.

Fender had skilled guys like Taddeo (sp?) Gomez carving necks, but most of the assembly work was done by semi skilled assembly line workers.

There's a ton of great information in the "Beauty of the Burst" book. One opinion expressed in that book that intuitively rings true is that the quality of wood has decreased over time, particularly mahogany. The theory is that old growth Honduran mahogany had virtually no mineral deposits in the wood. That's why a '59 LP Jr. will often weigh less than 7 lbs. As the supply of old, air dried quality mahogany was depleted, Gibson increasingly used inferior wood that had high mineral content (and was quickly kiln dried). That's why Norlin era LPs weigh 10 lbs or more. And, the theory goes, increased weight isn't the only detrimental effect. "Green" mahogany with high mineral content resonates much less than dry mineral free wood.

Sounds plausible to me.

[kizanski]

There's a ton of great information in the "Beauty of the Burst" book. One opinion expressed in that book that intuitively rings true is that the quality of wood has decreased over time, particularly mahogany. The theory is that old growth Honduran mahogany had virtually no mineral deposits in the wood. That's why a '59 LP Jr. will often weigh less than 7 lbs. As the supply of old, air dried quality mahogany was depleted, Gibson increasingly used inferior wood that had high mineral content (and was quickly kiln dried). That's why Norlin era LPs weigh 10 lbs or more. And, the theory goes, increased weight isn't the only detrimental effect. "Green" mahogany with high mineral content resonates much less than dry mineral free wood.

Sounds plausible to me.

Makes perfect sense to me. My '59 Junior practically floats, and it's really loud acoustically. Plugged in, it's as good as any you'll ever hear. My '59 Strat is the same way: light and loud.

Likewise, my Keebler, which was made with old wood, is the lightest full depth, unchambered Les Paul I have ever touched. And it shares the same sonic attributes as my Junior.

I have to believe that old wood is simply better than everything else.

[Stike]

I have to believe that old wood is simply better than everything else.

I like morning wood. Dead arm bandit is fun.

[marcus2]

Out of curiosity, does the fact that a lot of the vintage instruments (especially the beat up ones) sound good come from the fact that they have been played, and a lot at that?

The reason I ask is that a cello-playing colleague of mine explained to me that a cello, like other stringed instruments, needs to be played to keep a certain quality sound coming from it.

Of course, that sound quality is independent of the quality of the player that actually practices. ;-)

I think it has to do with how the sound waves affect the wood of the instrument.

[sirDaniel]

what about that theory of placing instruments infront of loudspeakers to resonate the piss out of them for long periods of time.

Voodoo?

[Guest pirateflynn]

I have to believe that old wood is simply better than everything else.

How old ?

[kizanski]

I have to believe that old wood is simply better than everything else.

How old ?

Older than me.

[Guest pirateflynn]

I have to believe that old wood is simply better than everything else.

How old ?

Older than me.

Old as the hills.

I have a 1978 guitar that I feel the same way about. It has a beautiful mahogany body that is light yet sounds bigger than my others.

[JohnnyB]

Bottom line for me is I have 3 335's. The first was gigged, looks old and beat, sounds absolutely unique. The second was bought as a backup since the first not only looks old and beat, it is old and beat. The third was simply a good price. I took the second and third, adjusted the saddles to the first (micrometer), then played -- similar, no cigar. Then adjusted the intonation to try to duplicate the first -- no cigar. Done a lot of other stuff -- no cigar. So the old saying of no two alike certainly true with my limited exp. of 335s with the old one far exceeding the new. Another thing -- the old guys worked with cassein glue, that's what they liked, it is possible the modern guits are made with epoxy glues that just don't sound the same (transmit vibration to the adjoining wood the same).

What year is your "old and beat" 335? The earliest ones had a maple/spruce/maple laminated top; later ones were laminated maple only. It could also come down to that it had more porous wood to start with and it's old and beat--that is, the wood's further aged and has been played in, which loosens it up and makes it more flexible, thereby being more resonant.

[Matt Mattson]

It's a 76, not ancient by any means, just old and well worn.