Speaker recommendation for Deluxe Reverb

[serial]

Looking for suggestions for a replacement 12" speaker for a 70's Fender Dlx Reverb. The Weber replacement my buddy tried is a bit brittle sounding with overdrive and he wants something a bit smoother.

Celestion? Eminence? Bueller?

Thanks!

[tgoss]

What model Weber did he get?

[DavidE]

Jensen?

[hardheartedbill]

you gotta break em in too , speakers can loosen up alot w/ use , the new emminence are nice and they seem to have a flavor for everyone. I'm really diggin the kendricks black frames. I had an electro harmonic 12 in a single cab that was fantastic, Gwayne bought it from me and loved it too, you don't hear about em much but this one was fantastic, most of Manifold Destiny is that EH 12" speaker

[silentman]

Why blame the speaker? Turn down the treble.

[Guest galejt]

Weber California gets a lot of recommendations for DRs on the Weber board.

[sirDaniel]

for something a little more ROCK, try a vintage 30.

Makes is a whole different beast.

PS, if you haven't tried it, don't comment...

[serial]

Thanks! It's a California. He apparently talked to Gerald W himself about it. He has maybe a dozen hours playtime on it, so maybe the break-in isn't there yet. He wanted something with a good bit of clean headroom (which it has), but when he kicks in OD, it gets too harsh.

[JohnnyB]

Yep, you can't tell what a speaker's performance range is right out of the box. The suspension on an instrument speaker is going to be particularly stiff when it's new. It may need as much as 30-60 hours of playing in to get there.

You also won't be able to tell how "tight" or "loose" the speaker sounds -- how much overhang you get at the end of a note. They're all rather tight when new.

[BadgerDave]

Steve, it's Ted Weber. Gerald is the Kendrick guy.

I tried several replacements in my DR and settled on a Weber Alnico Silver Bell. These are designed to have a more "British" sound. I love the way the Silver Bell smooths out the top end and eliminates the "gritty" tone of an original or clone Jensen when using OD. You sacrifice a bit of that traditional Fender "zing" in clean mode, but overall, the tone is rounder and fuller.

[serial]

Yes it is (doh!).

The Silver Bell sounds like it might be what he's looking for, although he might need a bit more air time with this one. Thanks to all for the suggestions-I'll pass 'em along.

[kenjones]

I put a Weber Ceramic Blue Dog speaker (Weber's version of the Bulldog) in my 1976 SFDR. I went with the ceramic model because I wanted a little more clean headroom. I had the guts of my SF changed over to a BF and I love the way it sounds.

Perhaps your friend can talk Ted into letting him trade his California for something different?

[Guest galejt]

Califonia's take a loooong time to break in. Ted can talk you through some "aging" techiques if you ask him.

Jim

[hardheartedbill]

if you have a drum machine or looper or even a CD player set to repeat you can hurry this process along , I guess you need a place to run this thing all day while your at work w/o driving people nuts, we have a soundproof room at the store that I can use, very helpfull

[serial]

He was running an mp3 player through it at medium volumes, but still figures all told, he's got about a dozen hours on it. I'll pass this info along too.

[bobbymack]

I put an Avatar Hellatone 30 (relabeled G12H30) in my '69 Deluxe and love it! Better midrange, tighter bass, and less piercing highs which can be a problem with these amps as you know. I like it much better than the Weber C12Q that Ted Weber recommended to me a few years back for the job.

For $80 you can't go wrong, and the Hellatones are "lightly" broken in (probably not really, that's how Dave gets around having to sell them as new G12H30s)...nonetheless, a terrific choice for a SF Deluxe imho...

[JohnnyB]

He was running an mp3 player through it at medium volumes, but still figures all told, he's got about a dozen hours on it.  I'll pass this info along too.

Notice HHB said drum machine. We've all discussed here how compressed pop music has become, and MP3 compresses it even more. The dozen hours with mp3 hardly count at all. You need real-world live transients (or the digital equivalents in a drum machine) to get that cone to jump and loosen up the suspension.

Several hours with an mp3 player wouldn't do as much as an hour of hard noodling.

[BadgerDave]

A couple of weeks ago I took a Jensen 10 to a shop for reconing. The gal behind the counter attached a couple of alligator clips to the speaker terminals and twisted a knob under the counter. The speaker cone started jumping like crazy! Apparently this is some sort of variable power source that they use to test speakers. Sounds like just the thing for breaking in a new one.

I'll have to ask to see the power source and regulator when I go back to pick up my speaker.

Variac, maybe? Is a Variac AC or DC?

[MCChris]

A couple of weeks ago I took a Jensen 10 to a shop for reconing. The gal behind the counter attached a couple of alligator clips to the speaker terminals and twisted a knob under the counter. The speaker cone started jumping like crazy! Apparently this is some sort of variable power source that they use to test speakers. Sounds like just the thing for breaking in a new one.

If by night she's a dominatrix, I'm sure she has other uses for that device.

[serial]

Scary that I was thinking that same thing. Time for a mind erasing...

[tomteriffic]

A couple of weeks ago I took a Jensen 10 to a shop for reconing. The gal behind the counter attached a couple of alligator clips to the speaker terminals and twisted a knob under the counter. The speaker cone started jumping like crazy! Apparently this is some sort of variable power source that they use to test speakers. Sounds like just the thing for breaking in a new one.

I'll have to ask to see the power source and regulator when I go back to pick up my speaker.

Variac, maybe? Is a Variac AC or DC?

Dave, a variac is a variable AC voltage source. But, it's usually going to oscillate at 50-60 Hz, probably too fast for the eye to catch. And the current would probably toast the coil pronto.

What they probably have rigged up is a low-frequency oscillator (8-10 Hz, something along those lines if you could actually see the voice coil motion), and an amp to push the speaker. A 9 volt battery hooked to the terminals will either push the cone all the way out or in, depending on the polarity.

[Guest Mike Lee]

Weber Californias are like JBL's. Not a good choice for overdrive, so why did he buy it in the first place? It's also a high power speaker, which is not needed in a relatively low powered Deluxe. Tell him to get Weber's copy of the C12N that's supposed to be in a Deluxe.

[Moose]

Dave, a variac is a variable AC voltage source.  But, it's usually going to oscillate at 50-60 Hz, probably too fast for the eye to catch.  And the current would probably toast the coil pronto.

Not true. Variacs are often used to break in speakers. It's a matter of how you set them up. As for current, the voice coil won't conduct more just because the variac can supply it. We plug low draw electronics into a wall socket that's on a 30A circuit and they still only draw a fraction of an Amp each, not the full 30A available, right?

Amperage is simply a matter of voltage drop across resistance (well, impedance in a speaker, but let's not get picky). The impedance stays ostensibly the same since an 8ohm speaker remains an 8ohm speaker whether you drive it with a guitar amp or some other AC supply like the variac. So, keep the voltage low enough and you can't possibly exceed the voice coil power handling, which is the point of using a variac instead of just plugging into the wall. Dial the voltage down to a reasonable level and let it run.

Anyway, here's an article from the WeberVST Q&A section:

I recently purchased a replacement 12" speaker for my amp. I like its tone, but it seems a little shy on the low end and a little tight overall. Is there anything I can do to loosen it up or improve its tone? I've heard of people beating on the magnet and other methods, but I'd like to know what you suggest.

Jeff, most speakers are a little tight when new due to the stiffness of the cone surround and spider. After several hours of playing at high levels, they begin to loosen up and have more overall body and sound projection. I've heard of beating on the magnet also, and quite frankly, I'm not sure what benefit it is supposed to yield. An AlNiCo magnet is a metal alloy, so it conducts electricity. This means that physical shock will cause the magnet to induce an electrical current into itself, which will in turn generate a magnetic field, and that field, if strong enough, can partially demagnetize the magnet. A ceramic magnet, on the other hand, is essentially non conductive and therefore has a very high resistance. That's the reason powdered ferrites are used in high frequency coils and transformers, so currents won't be induced in the core and adversely affect the transformer action at high frequencies. Ceramic speaker magnets are also made of powdered ferrites. If a person was purposely trying to decrease some of the magnetism of a speaker, the intent is probably to lower the self damping of the speaker itself thereby allowing the speaker resonance to add some low end. In my opinion, that's a poor method of increasing the low end.

OK, on to 'breaking in' a speaker. If you really want to speed up the breaking in period, the easist method is to connect the speaker to a filament transformer. Having said that, let's look at the precautions you need to take. Since you will be driving the speaker with a steady state signal, you don't want to drive it at its rated power or it will burn up the voice coil. 1/3 power rating is a safe figure to use. So, let's say you have a 50 watt speaker and it is 8 Ohm. 1/3 power is about 17 watts, and at 8 Ohm, that works out to be around 11.5 volts. Using a 12.6 volt transformer will put 20 watts into the speaker. I wouldn't have a problem with that in our products, but just to be safe, you might want to go with a 6.3 volt filament voltage, which will put about 5 watts into your speaker. Another option is to use a variac into the primary side of the 12.6 volt filament transformer and dial in the voltage you want on the secondary. That way, you can dial in the 11.5 volts we originally calculated at the 1/3 power level. I'd also suggest performing the operation in a garage or closet, because listening to the loud 60hz hum from the speaker will grate on your nerves very quickly. Also, if you leave the speaker out of the cabinet, the rear radiation of the speaker will cancel alot of the front radiation and reduce the noise. You need to lay the speaker face up though, so the cone can move as much as possible since the whole idea of this operation is to loosen up the cone and spider. Laying the speaker face down would trap air between the cone and the surface of the table and restrict cone movement. You're going to be surprised how much the cone moves and how loud the speaker is, even at 1/3 power.

Here's the math for determining the correct voltage to use in case you have a different wattage and impedance rating than our example above:

1. Take the power rating of the speaker and divide it by 3.

2. Take that number and multiply it by the speaker's Ohm rating (4, 8, or 16)

3. Use your calculator to find the square root of that number.

4. The result is the voltage you need to use to drive the speaker at 1/3 its rated power.

Here is a calculator that will determine a safe voltage to use:

Speaker Impedance 

Speaker Power Rating 

Break-in Voltage 

If you go to this URL:

http://www.webervst.com/sptalk.html

and search for "Variac" you'll find the article and a nice little calculator to help you use one.

Back to the original topic -- I LOVE the Weber Alnico Blue in a DR circuit, and can give a big +1 to Badger's reccomendation of the silver bell. But I like the juxtaposition of a slightly british sound with the warmer clean and more gradual breakup better than the classic DR sound. Still, break this California in for 10 more hours of hard playing before you judge it.

[JohnnyB]

Weber Californias are like JBL's.  Not a good choice for overdrive, so why did he buy it in the first place?  It's also a high power speaker, which is not needed in a relatively low powered Deluxe.  Tell him to get Weber's copy of the C12N that's supposed to be in a Deluxe.

Good point. Somehow I'd been thinking that the "California" designation was referring to Fullerton, but it's referring to L.A., home of James B. Lansing speakers.

And you're right. JBL instrument speakers were made for loud, clean, power-handling sound, and don't break up gracefully or progressively the way the Jensen alnicos did.

[paul144]

A great speaker for the Deluxe is a Reverend Alltone 1250, if you can find one. They've been discontinued...also, one of the best easily reversible mods you can do to soften the Deluxes brittle treble is to clip one side or completely remove the cap on the volume control. Just take out the chassis and you'll see it attached to the vol control. This acts like the bright switch on a Vibrolux or Twin, except its always "on" with the Deluxe. Its used to increase treble from 0-7 on the volume. By clipping it, you get a much smoother high end. Everytime I've used a twin or vibrolux, I always turn the bright switch off anyway. And from 7 higher, its the same as if the cap was still on.