Capacitors effect on tone?

[Kurt L]

Can anyone add to my learning experience?

A few months ago I put a nice set of Rio Grandes (2 Tallboys and a Stelly) into a MIJ Fender Strat. Doesn't seem to sound as good as I'd expect based on my previous experience with Rios.

I used 3 250K CTS pots (audio taper) and a .047 capacitor (Radio Shack cheapie) and wired it up like the diagram on the Rio Grande website. Everything works like it's supposed to, but sounds kind of brittle or sterile to me.

Should I get a more expensive capacitor (like a paper & oil one) or maybe try a different value? Would I notice any difference?

[Mike Lee]

Can anyone add to my learning experience?

A few months ago I put a nice set of Rio Grandes (2 Tallboys and a Stelly) into a MIJ Fender Strat. Doesn't seem to sound as good as I'd expect based on my previous experience with Rios.

I used 3 250K CTS pots (audio taper) and a .047 capacitor (Radio Shack cheapie) and wired it up like the diagram on the Rio Grande website. Everything works like it's supposed to, but sounds kind of brittle or sterile to me.

Should I get a more expensive capacitor (like a paper & oil one) or maybe try a different value? Would I notice any difference?

A different value will sound different, even with the tone on 10. Try a .1 Microfarad, that's what Fender used in the old days. It should remove a bit of the brittleness, but when you roll it all the way down you will probably get mud. Running your current cap with the tone rolled off a bit will have a similar effect.

Using a different type of cap won't make an audible difference in the tone. Some argue it will, but usually they are selling expensive caps...

[HSB0531]

Try unsoldering the cap first and check the sound.

[BubbaVO]

Can anyone add to my learning experience?

A few months ago I put a nice set of Rio Grandes (2 Tallboys and a Stelly) into a MIJ Fender Strat. Doesn't seem to sound as good as I'd expect based on my previous experience with Rios.

I used 3 250K CTS pots (audio taper) and a .047 capacitor (Radio Shack cheapie) and wired it up like the diagram on the Rio Grande website. Everything works like it's supposed to, but sounds kind of brittle or sterile to me.

Should I get a more expensive capacitor (like a paper & oil one) or maybe try a different value? Would I notice any difference?

A different value will sound different, even with the tone on 10. Try a .1 Microfarad, that's what Fender used in the old days. It should remove a bit of the brittleness, but when you roll it all the way down you will probably get mud. Running your current cap with the tone rolled off a bit will have a similar effect.

Using a different type of cap won't make an audible difference in the tone. Some argue it will, but usually they are selling expensive caps...

try a linear taper pot for volume . I like the RS guitarworks super pot - it measures out at 280k. BCR Greg can sell you pots with the Hamer taper.

Have you measured the actual value of the capacitor. I've found that with the Radio Shack stuff isn't labelled as accurately as you'd think. You don't need to spend big bucks to get a Vitamin Q. Those are pretty good.

[Armitage]

I used 3 250K CTS pots (audio taper) and a .047 capacitor (Radio Shack cheapie) and wired it up like the diagram on the Rio Grande website. Everything works like it's supposed to, but sounds kind of brittle or sterile to me.

Should I get a more expensive capacitor (like a paper & oil one) or maybe try a different value? Would I notice any difference?

Well it sounds like you've got all the right stuff in there, assuming you've got it wired correctly... If it's too bright, actually measure the value of the pots. 250k is standard for single coils (500k for HBuckers). Higher readings give you more output and more high end... so if your pot reads closer to 300K... replace it with one closer to 250k. It will make a difference, but not a lot of difference if it's close.

Changing the pot to a different taper won't help if you're not happy when it's on 10, it only affects the way the volume changes as you turn the pot down. It doesn't change the "tone" at the same output level (which may be a completely different number on the knob).

And changing brands of pots does NOTHING as long as they measure the same. Pots are not capacitive and are not reactive (certainly not in the audio range)... but pots that claim to be a certain value can be 20% off, and that makes a difference, so measure them. Specially if the ones you take out are 20% low and the ones going in are 20% high. Of course quality pots last longer, make less noise when you turn them... and can feel better... but the same exact measured value will sound identical... because it is.

.047 is also the standard size for a single coil guitar, though as posted above, some vintage Fender single coil guitars used .1 so if you've got vintage voiced pickups it'd be worth a try. Two .047 caps in parallel (side my side) are pretty close to .1, so if you have another try adding it and save a trip to the store.

Caps are different then pots as they can be made totally differently out of different materials that are frequency sensitive at different voltages... but even then most people can't tell a difference, so it's not a cure for a poor sounding guitar. It's like a dash of salt on a perfect steak.

And that's I guess the whole point. Even the best icing, doesn't make up for a rotten cake.

[zenmindbeginner]

I'm not an expert but if the sound is sterile or brittle, you are most likely having a phase issue. Are you doing the middle reverse wound thing for the hum cancellation? If you are, are you getting good hum cancellation in positions 2 and 4? How is the hum situation? Phase problems usually come with a good degree of hum. If you don't have any hum, maybe you should just start a Queen tribute band?

[murkat]

yes, caps effect tone output.

yes, not all caps are the same, even if same value.

Try a 022 in the strat.

Hovland musical caps are a fav of mine

[Armitage]

A .022 will be even brighter then the .047 he's got in there.

[murkat]

A .022 will be even brighter then the .047 he's got in there.

yes, you are correct....

but, full on, it be the same, well almost,

when you roll off a 022 at about 7 to 5 ish, the fun begins, thelil single coil gets a nice midrange almost humbucker tone to it,

an 047 will mud out by then.

[Armitage]

"it be the same, well almost" doesn't help when it'll be a touch brighter, and he wants it warmer...

[gorch]

Capacitors are behave as frequency filters.

Depending on the cap value the cut-off frequency will be lower or higher.

Depending on the material the capacitor will behave differently the way it cuts the frequency off. That behavior is tone effective. Meaning, you would be able to hear different behavior if you'd try out different cap types of the same value while turning the pot low/high.

Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to tell you which cap value to select for a certain pickup and pot selection.

However, I can tell you that I have a single coil setup that has an old original 60s cap in it. The cap is quite loose in quality compared to todays production standards. Electrically, it has a certain value, but lets a lot of dirt go through as well. The dirt sound wise is unbeatable.

In my Newport I changed the teleish Phat Cats to more stratish sounding P90s. The new pickups are not creating the high frequencies the Phat Cats created before.

With the pickup change the behavior of the tone pot changed too, because the frequency range of the pickups had changed. Now, soundwise the pot reacts in the lower 30% of the taper. I would need to change the cap value in order to adjust the tone pot behavior so that the tone changes over a long way through out the range of the pot.

SingleCoil.com is a very helpful site on this issues. Look at this:

http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/pot.pdf

[specialk]

This article might help you. Tone caps for Strats, from the April 2010 Premier Guitar mag.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issu...ers_Part_1.aspx

[zenmindbeginner]

You don't make a sterile or brittle sound better by adding highs... the man needs more low mids. Changing caps wouldn't affect his low mids at all.

[Armitage]

...but they can cut highs...

[gorch]

You don't make a sterile or brittle sound better by adding highs... the man needs more low mids. Changing caps wouldn't affect his low mids at all.

This brought me back to the start of the thread. We are talking about a MIM Fender. Obviously, he needs a Hamer to solve his problem.

[HSB0531]

Obviously, he needs a Hamer to solve his problem.

Very true indeed.

[thecajunboy]

This brought me back to the start of the thread. We are talking about a MIM Fender. Obviously, he needs a Hamer to solve his problem.

No, he's talking about a MIJ Strat with Rios. I have a MIJ Strat, and I tossed in a Rio Big Bottom in it. Everybody that's played it absolutely love it. There are a few folks here that bug me to sell it to them every once in awhile too.

[Kurt L]

This brought me back to the start of the thread. We are talking about a MIM Fender. Obviously, he needs a Hamer to solve his problem.

I'm always happy to add a Hamer, but cajunboy is right - it's a MIJ '62 reissue Strat. Nice guitar, just need to work out the pickups. Like I said, it's a learning experience.

Thanks for all the tips, everybody!

[BubbaVO]

This brought me back to the start of the thread. We are talking about a MIM Fender. Obviously, he needs a Hamer to solve his problem.

I'm always happy to add a Hamer, but cajunboy is right - it's a MIJ '62 reissue Strat. Nice guitar, just need to work out the pickups. Like I said, it's a learning experience.

Thanks for all the tips, everybody!

would slightly lowering the height of the pups on the treble side help?