Live Sound Frustration

[DavidE]

I do that with an RC boost or a Sparkledrive.

[Guest teefus2]

why don't you go back to having your amp facing more out towards the audience if he can't bring you out in the mix. it sounds like he (the soundman) is trying to make this more difficult than it should be, imho. you shouldn't need any outboard eq or compression on your guitar signal, again, imho. the less the better for both effects really. compression can really bury a guitar sound in the mix quickly.

[silentman]

What other instruments are you competing with? Another guitar player? Keys?

[Craig S]

The thing is that it seems to sound good during sound check, but when the band starts playing, it gets lost.

Boy that is so typical. I think everyone holds back a little on sound check. Unfortunately that's something he's going to have to learn to live with if he what's to be a soundman. That's just the way it is.

Sounds like he needs to learn how to twiddle with frequencies a little bit.

[80sRock]

I used to work for a sound company in the late seventies early eighties. That does not mean I know what I am talking about but it sounds good. Are you scooping your mids? If you are you may want to put a little more back. Sometimes what sounds great on stage will sound like crap in the system or get lost. Let the board do your EQing. If you scoop the mids to much on stage it WILL get lost in the mix. When I used to use the old Marshalls (the ones without a master voulume) I had to turn it to the wall and put blankets over it. I used an SM57 to mic it. I would get a decent sound on stage and let the soundman do the final eq. Are you crossing over 2 way 3way in the PA. It is hard to screw up 2 way but if its 3 way and he does not have the mids up enough you would get lost, but so would a lot of the vocals.

[Steve Haynie]

Just to throw in another idea, how about trying two different outputs for your guitar. If you can split your signal into your amp and a preamp you may make everyone happy. Your amp will serve you on stage, and the preamp can feed the mixing console with whatever the soundman needs. It will be his settings that are heard out front, and it will be his responsibility from then on.

Yes, your perceived tone will be at the mercy of someone else, but if it gets you in the mix you have won most of the battle. You have already been making compromises on your tone. This would just be a different sort of compromise.

[DavidE]

I don't scoop my mids at all. In fact, I've tried pushing them to cut but it didn't help.

I'm not sure if he compresses my guitar channel or if he's just using the channel eq.

I'm competing with drums, acoustic guitar, bass and vocals. No other electric guitar or keys.

He seems to do better with my Naylor, so I'll probably just stick to that, but I wanted something I could clean up more when the acoustic guitarist isn't there.

Sigh.

[80sRock]

If you are not scooping the mids and there are not any other treble instruments other than acoustic, I would have to say it is the soundman. He does not have somthing in the PA set correctly. I would turn the guitar forward and let him deal with the stage volume. That way your stage voulume puts you out front.

[JJ Paul]

So, I have my amp just killing on stage.  Due to the sound guy not being able to deal with an electric guitar amp facing towards him from the back on the stage, I have to either sidewash, or like I did last night because of the size of the stage, the speaker cab was on the floor facing up at my head.

Now, I have it sounding great and it's cutting like crazy on stage.  Yet the sound guy can't make it cut out front.  He makes suggestions for cutting mids, adding treble etc... and I do what I can to accomodate.  I take a solo, step out front and it's barely audible through the mains.

He's using a Sennheiser guitar mic (the flat one, silver model) on the cab.  He has no problems with drums, acoustic guitar and usually does ok with bass.  Sometimes my clean channel sounds ok out front.  Sometimes.  The vocal monitors are NEVER loud enough (except for the lead singer who gets two monitor cabs).

Other than send the guy packing, any suggestions?

Seems a load of BS to me.

Provided

a) you're keeping an adequate volume vs. the rest of the instruments onstage

your sound isn't too muddy and therefore buried under the bass, keys, etc

your tech should just run your channel through a decent comp (FMR Really Nice Comrpessor, for example, in SuperNice mode), eventually roll off the bass below say 100Hz (a little tweaking is needed) and then have the cojones to push up the fader when the solo kicks in.

THAT isn't difficult at all...

I just wonder what he'd do if he had the gig I had last sunday... acoustic guitar, clarinet, violin, upright bass, drums (played w/ brushes thank God), inside a small breakfast hall...

JJ

p.s.: send the guy packing

[hikarateboy]

I think a good possibility is he is adding or passing too much bottom in the guitar. If so, he cant turn it up or else everything booms and sounds like ass so he keeps it down and you cant hear it. He definately he should have lo cut or high pass engaged then he can pump you up and let the bass and kick fill the bottom. This is the standard in mixing in the studio and translates live too.

I know alot of people will say I need that bottom for my sound. you can still have it from your amp but out front you only need what you need to make it sound good.

Maybe I'm swinging in the wind but since he cant get you loud enough while making it sound good I think this is a possibility.

I dont think its a mic issue being the they changed the 609 to sound more like the industry standard guitar mic sm57 it should be fine. the black 609 is just darker.

My bud Eddie Ciletti did some reviewing of the original including some freq graphing he did which if interested can be found here http://www.tangible-technology.com/microph...y/proximity.htm

[jwhitcomb3]

You're assuming I'd know what to tell him....

Between his board and his outboard eqs and compressors and shit, I wouldn't be much help.

He's as frustrated as I am, but he keeps blaming it on me changing my rig (different guitars and amps). But they all sound really good on stage and they all cut on stage. I just don't know what to do but I want to make it work.

If he's got any compression on the guitar channel or on the main mix, have him take it off.

If it's on the guitar channel he could just be squashing the hell out of your tone so you won't cut.

If he's got it on the main mix then it will respond to the loudest instrument and your guitar could be getting lost.

Compression isn't a bad thing (in fact it can sound GREAT), but in the hands of an amature it can destroy your sound.

-Jonathan

[DavidE]

What if I have too much bottom end at the amp? He's had me turn it up.

[silentman]

You should be able to set the amp generally the way you like it and have it tweaked on the board eq. Too much bass will kill you and you'll be lost.

[BCR Greg]

JESUS, MAN!!!

Get a tone that YOU like, go out front and have him run you WITHOUT EFFECTS in your channel. Turn the knobs until you like it. DONE.

It's really not hard at all, keep the stage level reasonable and get pumped in the mains.

If he can't do it, GET ANOTHER SOUND MAN.

I have mixed every concievable sort of band, with every concievable sort of onstage rig.

It's NOT THAT HARD.

[DavidE]

Ok.

I'll just continue to tell him it's his problem and he needs to learn what to do.

I can't get the other guys to agree to replace him, so I'm stuck.

[Moose]

I wasn't going to say anything, but you're drivin' me nuts, man! You sound like a chick I used to know who would call me up, ask for advice, and then never take it. The next week she'd call, complain that nothing got better, ask for advice again, then never take it.

Greg knows. Don't tell the sound guy he needs to learn, get your ass off the stage, do it yourself, and TEACH the guy.

No offense to everyone else, but all these ideas are useless if the guy doesn't know his stuff. If he thinks, and says, things like the Silver sennheiser is "preferred", you do NOT want to trust where he's learning his techniques. You need to show him. You'll both be better off for your efforts -- he'll learn what you really want and you'll get what you really want.

OK, rant off.

-Moose

[DavidE]

I'll definitely give it a try on Thursday night. But I have to do it while the band is playing as it seems to sound ok during individual soundcheck.

[kenjones]

First thing I'd do would be to flatten out all the EQ's on the channel of the board your guitar is in and tell him to remove any compression or any effects and start tweaking it from there.

On more than one occasion my band has played at a club that has a house PA that the band has to run themselves without a soundman. I look at the board and the EQ's are usually all over the place. I flatten all of them out and have a listen. If it sounds OK I leave them that way. The kick drum is one of the few channels I'll EQ without listening first (I usually turn the high EQ down to about 8 or 9 o'clock).

[hikarateboy]

What if I have too much bottom end at the amp?  He's had me turn it up.

Dave sounds like you are in a bad spot being the one who is concerned and not able to do anything but teach the guy. Everyone has great advice on this especially start from scratch/flat. Im gonna lobby once more for my idea since I think its a good starting point for teaching him as well as easy to try.

Three easy steps.

1 Get it how you like it on stage,

2. mic it

3. Cut the bottom at the sound board with a high pass filter, low cut and or eq The rest of the band will fill in the holes.

In a recent issue of EQ magazine BT, a dance music recording guy but still knows what he is doing, said cut everything below 120 hz on take every track except kick and bass and your mixes will be 3000% better. IMHO its true.

Most mixers use subtractive rather than additive eq to avoid build up and ass sound