1974 Gibson Les Paul Black Beauty Neck joint issue

[jaberwock]

My friends 1974 Black Beauty has a neck joint issue, there is a visible change in angle to the fretboard where it meets the body, it's especially evident on the the low E side,  the bridge has to be adjusted massively high just to get the guitar playable, I'm not sure if this has the short " rocker" tenon, or the longer one, I've yet to get him to remove the neck pickup, and check out the PU cavity.

  Any ideas on what's causing the kink in the fretboard ?

 

     Many thanks Jaberwock

[Thundersteel]

I can tell by the first pic that the fretboard is bowing. The truss rod needs to be adjusted. It looks like it might be twisted a bit, too, but I can't be sure.

[it's me HHB]

Seems like this hump at the neck joint is a well known issue that Ive heard about before. Also seemed like it was a fretboard plane that fixed it

[murkat]

known as rising tongue.

a very well  known, documented issue with early 70's LPC's.

Gibson is still today in total denial of the term "rising tongue" even thou they see it right in front of them, all the time.

That LPC will have the short tennon.

The cause is too much space between the two surfaces and too much glue applied.

The glue expands and contracts as weather changes, distorting the neck wood along with it.

 

That binding a awfully white for being a 74'. Case queen?

Also, that is a real bad example of RT.

About the the most extreme case of I have ever seen.

[Jeff R]

Yep and yep. I think I also see excessive relief in that first photo too.

I've alleviated the fretboard hump thing in leveling jobs but it took advantage of meaty frets, whether they were already there or via refret. 70s LPCs didn't have that big of frets to begin with, at least none I've owned ever did, and that's before you put in a 40-years-of-wear component. I don't see enough fret in the photos for the leveling remedy to work - you'll be a literal "fretless wonder" from fret 15 up haha. My first thought is refret after front-end fretboard work to knock down the hump and refresh the radius. I hope your friend isn't determined to really address the hump and keep what's left of the binding nibs intact.

[murkat]

Looking at the pics, it is a rare LPC with stock jumbo fret wire, special order. (my 73' is)

or

Factory re necked (gone wrong).

A close up trained eye inspection could determine.

Yep, level fret board, refret with tall jumbos (loosing nibs), cross fingers, mow down till level.

The LPC will still RT through odd temperal changes during seasons, but not as much.... maybe.....

[Jeff R]

"Mow down till level" is a very accurate assessment ... those fingerboard side dots may very likely end up half-moon smiley faces

[kizanski]

34 minutes ago, Jeff R said:

I hope your friend isn't determined to really address the hump and keep what's left of the binding nibs intact.

Fuck those nibs!!
Fuck'em!!

[jaberwock]

Yes, it was a closet queen !! Frets are the original "Fretless wonders ", it also weighs  

close to twelve pounds !!

[Disturber]

16 hours ago, Jeff R said:

"Mow down till level" is a very accurate assessment ... those fingerboard side dots may very likely end up half-moon smiley faces

I have one guitar that had a twisted board, that ended up that way. I does not really bother me. If the guitar is great, then just keep playing it. Be happy it was a fixable problem.

[Duplex Dave]

On 12/1/2016 at 7:52 AM, murkat said:

Looking at the pics, it is a rare LPC with stock jumbo fret wire, special order. (my 73' is)

or

Factory re necked (gone wrong).

A close up trained eye inspection could determine.

Yep, level fret board, refret with tall jumbos (loosing nibs), cross fingers, mow down till level.

The LPC will still RT through odd temperal changes during seasons, but not as much.... maybe.....

Question Murkat, would removing the neck ever be considered a remedy for this? I'm guessing one would add some wood where the glue filled gap is causing the problems? Possibly heat treat the rising tongue and try to clamp it back to level (or closer to it) before putting the neck back on. It would still need a plane and refret, but maybe it would minimize the zig zag where the neck joins the body...? 

[murkat]

6 hours ago, Duplex Dave said:

Question

tough call Dave.

I would get it into hands of someone who is experienced with RT's

At Gibson, it would get re necked after denial.

Depends on your friend what He wants to do.

Does the RT remain in the  same condition? [ refret with board leveled ]

Or does it change as the seasons of weather for better or worse? [ re neck to spec, choice ]

[jaberwock]

  With such a severe case of rising tongue, would  the planing level of the fretboard be very apparent as shown by the differing depth of the binding on the area's worst affected ? the treble side is no where near as bad as the bass side for some reason.

  I told my friend as soon as I saw the guitar, he needed to get it to a good luthier, he's been delaying for nearly two years and the problem is getting worse, hopefully your collective expertise can finally persuade him, and for which I'm very grateful.

 

 Jaberwock

[Dave Scepter]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:38 AM, murkat said:

known as rising tongue.

Giggity... 

[murkat]

5 hours ago, jaberwock said:

the treble side is no where near as bad as the bass side for some reason.

well, looking at that side shot of the neck, low E side, at the 15th fret, the area appears to be more of a bad masking / scraping of the binding.

It looks way too retarded at the 15th to be just a bad case of RT.

I can only go by what is provided to assess.