50's Wiring for a Lester

[velorush]

Back in 2020 I ran across one of the new Lesters Guitar Chimp had up on Reverb.  After a phone conversation with Jerald (and consultation with a certain esteemed HFCer/Gibson expert in the Nash Vegas Metropolitan area) I bought it.  It's a 2019 50's Les Paul Standard. 

   

The Burstbucker 1 and 2 pickups are fantastic and if I could have this neck on every instrument I play I'd be more than happy.  The 500k pots work / sound much better than the old 300k's but I've been listening to too many vintage Lester clips and have gotten curious about 50's wiring.

Those in favor of it say it "removes the blanket" (whatever that means - the 500k's do a lot of that) and allows the controls to do what they were originally intended. Those opposing it say it makes the controls too "fitzy" with the Tone control messing with volume and vice versa. 

Personally, I am constantly tweaking both controls, so I don't think I would dislike it after getting used to it. My purpose (other than curiosity) would be to see if I could get closer to the vintage tones I'm hearing without spending my entire retirement fund.

Tons of discussion of this on other forums, but I don't know those folks.  What say the HFC about 50's wiring for a VVTT setup? 

 

[Cboss]

Very easy to try, very easy to reverse if you don't like it.

On my brother's Gibson explorer the internal wiring was very cheap, his Les Paul pretty much the same; I just redid the wiring using good stuff, soldered, and a new good jack and the difference in clarity is huge.

Also converted his tone pot to no load and that really made a nice diff with the burstbuckers also

 

[velorush]

Yep, the '91 Howard Roberts I have listed on Reverb came with 300k pots.  I replaced them with RS Guitarworks 500k pots and caps and it really works much better (of course, the Lollar Imperials had a little bit to do with the improvement...).  But that is wired modern-style.  I wasn't taking anything to chances given the effort required to change anything on the harness. 

[murkat]

you won’t notice too much difference really. if you already have new 500k’s in there, then go ahead and 50’s it, it’s good if you like riding the knob’s while playing a dynamics amp that responds well to volume tome changes on a whim,

[velorush]

So I did it! Pretty cramped so I started with some protection:

Seemed to me the best strategy was to desolder the most delicate piece first, then zero in on that Tone pot.

This can certainly be done without changing the Tone pot ground lug from the lower (in the picture) to middle, but they used the middle lug for ground in the 50's and 60's.  To quote Premier Guitar: 

Quote

[RE:60's wiring] ...in this configuration, the tone cap is still connected to the input of the volume pot, but on the tone pot the middle lug is now connected to ground. Electrically, the '60s wiring is completely identical to the modern wiring with the same tone, behavior, and problems. But there is one significant difference: In terms of shielding, the '60s wiring is superior to the modern wiring scheme. When electromagnetic interferences enter a guitar, they will also stray into the tone pot's unused pin and therefore into the middle lug (the wiper) in both wirings. With the wiper connected to ground, as in the '60s wiring, the interferences will stop at this point.

 

So, compared to the modern wiring, the signal-to-noise ratio in the '60s wiring is superior. This is technical knowledge from yesteryear: The wiper of a variable resistor is connected to the low resistance part of the circuit. This knowledge was really important when designing and building tube amps, radios, and televisions, but is almost forgotten today.

 

So why did Gibson switch from the '60s to the modern wiring? My personal theory is that this allowed them to use pre-configured pots for both volume and tone, with the same third lug soldered to the case as the grounding point. I don't know if this is true, but if you know the reason or have another theory, please share it. 

[Updated 9/9/21]

Seemed worth the extra trouble (iron was already hot).

Nothing to do now but zip the Bridge controls all back together 50's style and replicate on the Neck components:

Verdict: I like it much better. I almost never run the Volume or Tone controls on 10, so it is much better for my use.  Far less mud as the Volume control turns down. I was concerned about the interaction between Tone and Volume controls, but it is very minor and actually useful. The middle (both pickups) is where this thing shines and the new wiring makes that even better. Pretty good use of a rainy Saturday.

[Hackubus]

Nice job!

[velorush]

Strat's next!

Anyone ever try it on a Strat?  From my limited playing so far (maybe an hour, total) it would seem perfect.

[velorush]

On 2/12/2024 at 9:54 AM, velorush said:

Strat's next!

Anyone ever try it on a Strat?  From my limited playing so far (maybe an hour, total) it would seem perfect.

Finished the partscaster (Suhr ML Standards).  It's a bit MORE sounding, but nowhere nearly the difference as in the Les Paul.  The treble drop with volume in positions 1,3 and 5 is noticeably better, but treble drop in positions 2 and 4 is either the same or worse.  It very well could be the treble drop in positions 2 and 4 is much less pronounced with the Volume on 10 and is just more noticeable now that it is so.

Verdict: I think overall the guitar is better for it, but not the significant difference as in the Les Paul.  I just keep going back to the Les Paul. I always noodled with the Volume and Tone controls, but now the nuance is amazing. I end up playing for much longer just exploring sounds. 

Would have been very interesting to try 50's wiring in the partscaster when I had the TV Jones Filtertrons in it.  Will definitely try that if I get a hankering to go back to the Stretschocaster layout.

[DaveL]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:43 PM, Hackubus said:

Nice job!

agree... and I liked the care taken to avoid solder burn marks in the wood!   

[tbonesullivan]

I don't think I've ever swapped the pots in a guitar, though I know a lot of people do. I don't really use the controls on the guitar though, and tend to run everything at full. Yeah, I'm "one of those". When you run everything at 10, shouldn't there be little resistance from the pots? Or is there still enough on the grounds and such for it to matter?

[Cboss]

2 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

I don't think I've ever swapped the pots in a guitar, though I know a lot of people do. I don't really use the controls on the guitar though, and tend to run everything at full. Yeah, I'm "one of those". When you run everything at 10, shouldn't there be little resistance from the pots? Or is there still enough on the grounds and such for it to matter?

It definitely matters, I'm a run everything on 10 person also and I always make the tone pot no load, I can easily hear the difference..9 times out of 10 the tone pot out of the circuit is much more dynamic and musical, and of course with a no load the smallest turn counterclockwise and it's right back in circuit doing its job

if you swap a 500K pot for a 250k even on 10 it's noticeably darker, which of course is what you want sometimes.

[HSB0531]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:24 PM, velorush said:

Back in 2020 I ran across one of the new Lesters Guitar Chimp had up on Reverb.  After a phone conversation with Jerald (and consultation with a certain esteemed HFCer/Gibson expert in the Nash Vegas Metropolitan area) I bought it.  It's a 2019 50's Les Paul Standard. 

   

The Burstbucker 1 and 2 pickups are fantastic and if I could have this neck on every instrument I play I'd be more than happy.  The 500k pots work / sound much better than the old 300k's but I've been listening to too many vintage Lester clips and have gotten curious about 50's wiring.

Those in favor of it say it "removes the blanket" (whatever that means - the 500k's do a lot of that) and allows the controls to do what they were originally intended. Those opposing it say it makes the controls too "fitzy" with the Tone control messing with volume and vice versa. 

Personally, I am constantly tweaking both controls, so I don't think I would dislike it after getting used to it. My purpose (other than curiosity) would be to see if I could get closer to the vintage tones I'm hearing without spending my entire retirement fund.

Tons of discussion of this on other forums, but I don't know those folks.  What say the HFC about 50's wiring for a VVTT setup? 

 

I believe it has to do with the opposite leg on the volume pot soldered to ground, and the treble roll-off increasing as you turn down the volume.  The 500k ohm resistance doesn't cause capacitance and treble roll-off as much as a 300k pot does because the resistance between the terminals is greater.  Now I wonder if a 1meg ohm Vol. Pot. would be even better for a humbucker circuit.

 

[velorush]

5 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

I believe it has to do with the opposite leg on the volume pot soldered to ground, and the treble roll-off increasing as you turn down the volume.  The 500k ohm resistance doesn't cause capacitance and treble roll-off as much as a 300k pot does because the resistance between the terminals is greater.  Now I wonder if a 1meg ohm Vol. Pot. would be even better for a humbucker circuit.

 

I've never read about anyone experimenting with 1 Meg pots in a humbucker circuit, but I do know my old 1956 Silvertone (Danelectro) had 1 Meg pots with a single lipstick pickup - don't recall the Tone cap value - and it sounded great.  I've read the original Telecasters (i.e., Broadcasters, Esquires) came with 1 Meg pots, but I have no experience with those - would seem to be a recipe for ice picks, but what do I know? 

There was a pretty simple explanation of why the 50's wiring works some time back on the Les Paul Forum:

Quote

The effect this has is that the tone control is "before" the volume control on the modern wiring, and the tone control is "after" the volume control on the '50s wiring.

With everything on "10", there's no electrical difference. Where the '50s wiring comes into play is when you start twiddling the knobs. With the modern wiring, the tone control setting provides the same loading on the pickup because it's before the resistive element of the volume pot. On the '50s wiring the tone control remains constant on the output signal because it's after the volume control.

Also, in the '50s wiring, the with the selector switch in the middle position, the tone controls are always directly in parallel, so they're more interactive with each other. Neat stuff if you twiddle the knobs a lot.

Amazing I've waited this long to try this out.  It's got me eyeing the Howard Roberts... but picture in the third post, above, shows, that will be quite an undertaking.

 

[HSB0531]

1 hour ago, velorush said:

I've never read about anyone experimenting with 1 Meg pots in a humbucker circuit, but I do know my old 1956 Silvertone (Danelectro) had 1 Meg pots with a single lipstick pickup - don't recall the Tone cap value - and it sounded great.  I've read the original Telecasters (i.e., Broadcasters, Esquires) came with 1 Meg pots, but I have no experience with those - would seem to be a recipe for ice picks, but what do I know? 

There was a pretty simple explanation of why the 50's wiring works some time back on the Les Paul Forum:

Amazing I've waited this long to try this out.  It's got me eyeing the Howard Roberts... but picture in the third post, above, shows, that will be quite an undertaking.

 

Velorush: Thanks for that info.

On my basses, the Fender and the Standard #0531, I have them wired as volumes only. The Standard Bass has 3 volume pots and no tone caps or pots. The 73 P-bass is a volume pot for each of the 2 pups and again, no caps or tone pots.

For the Standard 12 Bass I went with a normal Vol./Vol./Tone setup when I ordered it.

Like you, I also had a Sears Silvertone with amp n case.  Same lipstick P/U's and yes the 1 meg. pots.

 

[HSB0531]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:39 PM, tbonesullivan said:

I don't think I've ever swapped the pots in a guitar, though I know a lot of people do. I don't really use the controls on the guitar though, and tend to run everything at full. Yeah, I'm "one of those". When you run everything at 10, shouldn't there be little resistance from the pots? Or is there still enough on the grounds and such for it to matter?

The ground is a constant and doesn't vary with changes in level.  If you always run at 10, you could bypass the pots and got straight to the jack.  But I wouldn't do that because you never know when you want to change the balance between pups.

[Cboss]

On 3/1/2024 at 8:09 PM, HSB0531 said:

The ground is a constant and doesn't vary with changes in level.  If you always run at 10, you could bypass the pots and got straight to the jack.  But I wouldn't do that because you never know when you want to change the balance between pups.

Not true, the pots have an inherent resistance to them (full CW/10) which is absolutely audible

that's why they're sold in different resistances, 1M 500k 300K 250k 25k Etc.. there are videos on YouTube that will let you hear the difference between these, everything else being the same

[HSB0531]

19 hours ago, Cboss said:

Not true, the pots have an inherent resistance to them (full CW/10) which is absolutely audible

that's why they're sold in different resistances, 1M 500k 300K 250k 25k Etc.. there are videos on YouTube that will let you hear the difference between these, everything else being the same

Yes you're right, I stand corrected.  Everything in the chain adds a little bit to the tone of the guitar.

[HSB0531]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:24 PM, velorush said:

Back in 2020 I ran across one of the new Lesters Guitar Chimp had up on Reverb.  After a phone conversation with Jerald (and consultation with a certain esteemed HFCer/Gibson expert in the Nash Vegas Metropolitan area) I bought it.  It's a 2019 50's Les Paul Standard. 

   

The Burstbucker 1 and 2 pickups are fantastic and if I could have this neck on every instrument I play I'd be more than happy.  The 500k pots work / sound much better than the old 300k's but I've been listening to too many vintage Lester clips and have gotten curious about 50's wiring.

Those in favor of it say it "removes the blanket" (whatever that means - the 500k's do a lot of that) and allows the controls to do what they were originally intended. Those opposing it say it makes the controls too "fitzy" with the Tone control messing with volume and vice versa. 

Personally, I am constantly tweaking both controls, so I don't think I would dislike it after getting used to it. My purpose (other than curiosity) would be to see if I could get closer to the vintage tones I'm hearing without spending my entire retirement fund.

Tons of discussion of this on other forums, but I don't know those folks.  What say the HFC about 50's wiring for a VVTT setup? 

 

I Love looking at this one!

[Cboss]

2 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

Yes you're right, I stand corrected.  Everything in the chain adds a little bit to the tone of the guitar.

I've found that making the tone pot no load opens up a lot of goodness, every guitar I've done that to sounds better with that, usually significantly:)

[velorush]

4 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

I Love looking at this one!

Thanks.  Me too.  I started (really) playing in 1982 and this is my first Lester.  It was a late-COVID, thoughtless purchase that has turned out really great for me. 

Guitar Chimp (one of the Reverb Vendors that consistently lists neck specs and weight) listed this as being something like 8.75 lbs. with 50's neck measurements.  I'd been reading about the new, post Henry J. Gibsons, consulted with the HFC expert on all things Gibson, and with his approval I called Jerald.  Jerald weighed it again while I was on the phone, "nope, 9 lbs. 4 oz."  I told him that was close enough and bought it.  The guitar was absolutely as-new.  I've seen tons of new guitars hanging in shops with more handling wear than this one.  The case candy was still sealed in the plastic bags. 

Needless to say, it is no longer pristine as I play it at least a little on most days.  I haven't played this much guitar in years and most of that is due to just how good it plays and sounds.  This is the first guitar I've ever bought (other than Shishkov 0023) that I have not wanted to change the pickups.  The Burstbuckers (1 and 2) sound just like I'd expect a Les Paul to sound and the 50's wiring is absolutely icing on the cake. 

[Armitage]

The '50s mod of moving the cap does absolutely nothing until you turn the volume knob down. So if you keep it on 10... it's not going to do anything at all. Literally nothing.

500k pots give you a touch more output and it's a touch brighter too.

[velorush]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:48 AM, Armitage said:

The '50s mod of moving the cap does absolutely nothing until you turn the volume knob down. So if you keep it on 10... it's not going to do anything at all. Literally nothing.

500k pots give you a touch more output and it's a touch brighter too.

Yep.  That's what got me interested in the first place as neither my volume nor tone controls are typically on 10 (other than briefly when I need to be more emphatically annoying).