In praise of a guitar condition rating system...

[Willie G. Moseley]

The eBay auction description thread got me to thinking (once again) that there ought to be some kind of standardization in condition ratings for used or vintage gear...guitars in particular, more so than amps (which, aesthetically, are boxes, for the most part).

However, who thinks that'll ever happen? There've been attempts to get (vintage) dealers organized in the past, and (perhaps not surprisingly) all of those efforts imploded on the launching pad due primarily to (unspoken) dealer mistrust of each other. They can't even agree on what constitutes "vintage" vs. "used".

You'd think eBay could form/employ its own association of knowledgeable businesspeople (usually retailers) to come up with at least a standardization guideline for its own purposes. The roster of experts one sees on "Antique Road Show" (all products, not just the occasional guitar that's seen) might be a starter-type of template.

I'm about 7 1/2 years from senior citizen status. Such helter-skelter descriptions, so-called appraisals/"what's it worth" ludicrousness, etc. have been going on ever since I first started acquiring guitars in '72, so it's looking more likely that come July 2015, I'll probably sell off everything I have (left).

I won't necessarily be saying "good riddance", but ain't you ever wished some folks would simply be realistic in their descriptions of instruments and/or their selling prices?

[BubbaVO]

What if we were to develop one; Post it; And let folks selling refer to it on Ebay listings? You'll have your standards and with all the traffic HFC'rs generate on EBay I can see it being readily adopted.

[Turdus]

I visited a dealer that had a 50's P bass, listed as mint. It was well played, missing a lot of finish, etc. I asked what constituted the "mint" rating. I was told that it was mint for its age.

There will never be a system that everybody agrees on. As mentioned in the other thread.. people see things differently.

[MCChris]

There will never be a system that everybody agrees on. As mentioned in the other thread.. people see things differently.

Exactly. What consitutes a particular rating? Number of dings? Depth of dings? Visibility of dings?

[Steve Haynie]

It will never happen. In comic books there are several grading guides with photo examples and even color charts for what the plain paper should look like. Grading is still all over the place. I knew someone who wrote a grading guide and made sure everyone knew he wrote a grading guide when someone questioned the grading of his own comic books for sale.

With guitars you are going to have those people who upgrade what they are selling and downgrade what they are buying. The best way to do business is to buy in person. If you cannot, find someone that is trusted by people you trust.

[MCChris]

With guitars you are going to have those people who upgrade what they are selling and downgrade what they are buying.

Yep. It's called marketing, which in most cases is based on half-truths and deception.

[Mr Fuzzy]

A rating system is a good idea, but there will always be some douche who uses descriptions like... "only a few scratches, mint for it's age" - uh no such thing. Age is completely irrelevant when it comes to grading condition.

Or "mint condition" only the tuners and bridge pickup have been changed. Uh that's not "mint" either

Grading systems are only good if the seller has self control over their greed, and a realistic point of view.

But, everyones point of view is different. So a workable system probably will not stick.

Plus we now live in a time where every dimwit thinks that just because something is old it is worth a lot of money. It dosen't really work that way.

Rating systems for collectables, no matter how good or detailed are always overshadowed by greed.

[licksville]

I have long had an issue with the term 'mint' and it's use in grading guitars. When I was a kid, I had a coin collection and, as I remember it, coin grading was similarly subjective, but the grade of mint was not. IIRC, mint described a coin which left the mint in a sealed container with the coin itself having never been touched. In that context, I don't think many if any guitars on ebay qualify as mint.

And don't get me started on whether a figured top can be 'AAAAAA'...

[Scooter]

The ironic thing is, the more flaws you point out in an eBay auction, the higher the bidding gets. True!

[blackfbiv]

And don't get me started on whether a figured top can be 'AAAAAA'...

Is that something like "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARoadRunner Pizza" in the phone book?

[crunchee]

Guitar ratings, like eBay, is a crapshoot. I only do business with one dealer (and have for about 13 years) who I can absolutely trust to represent a used guitar. There's way too much subjectivity and emotion involved with guitars. As for eBay, don't get me started!

[Guest Mike Lee]

Before Ebay, reputable dealers seemed to be reasonably consistent on conditional grading. E+, E, E-, VG+, VG, VG-, etc. The guitar was rated relative to it's age so E for a 40 year old guitar is going to be more worn than a 5 year old guitar but you get the idea.

But once Ebay took over, forget it. That's when "MINT+++ except for the broken headstock repair" started happening. Amongst people with a clue, mint is still mint - in original as-manufactured condition with no shop wear. But then a lot of people have no clue.

It's amazing the depths of misrepresentation and marketing puffery many people will go to sell something on Ebay. Everyone's a huckster it seems.

But now you can just get digital pictures to take the subjectivity out of it. Of course, half the time the pictures are too small and out of focus...

Edited to add - My favorite description reference list:

Abbreviations used in our descriptions.

mc=mint condition

ex=excellent condition

vg= very good condition

gc=good condition

fc=fair condition

pc=poor condition

pos=piece of shit

rpos=real piece of shit

rfpos=real fucking piece of shit

h/s=headstock

p/u=pickup

s/s= solid state

m/v=master volume

f/s=footswitch

hsc=hard shell case

ohsc=original hard shell case

ssc=soft shell case

ossc=original soft shell case

gb=gig bag

sb=sunburst

csb=cherry sunburst

tsb=tobacco sunburst

nat=natural

bl=blonde

ch=cherry

cons=consignment

m/b=maple fretboard

r/b=rosewood fretboard

!@#$%^*= paid alot for it, now you can too!

pnyp= pay next year's price

sn=serial number

mim= Made in Mexico

mij= Made in Japan

mik= Made in Korea

US= Made in US

nsn=no serial number

new=new instrument

nib=new in box

as new=like new or shop wear

pmf=pull my finger

wtf=what the fuck

wtfu=wake the fuck up

[crunchee]

Here's another one to add to the list (as used often by a big wheel vintage dealer):

GFAO=Go Find Another One

[Hamerhack]

How do they rate coins, stamps, or antique furniture?

[Steve Haynie]

How do they rate coins, stamps, or antique furniture?

Each hobby has its quirks. With coins and stamps there are photo guides to show typical levels of wear to determine different grades. Antique furniture is something else. Repairs and refinishing affect price, but they are accepted differently than in guitar collecting.